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    Good thinking.

    I could argue the point, but that would just lead to the inevitably lengthy follow-up to-and-fro. [/QUOTE]Good thinking.
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    To paraphrase and simplify, Bomb20 was saying...

    To paraphrase and simplify, Bomb20 was saying that the first claim (about meat-eating) is normally intended as a factual statement (i.e.true/false independent of anyone's opinion) whereas the latter...
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    What specifically are you struggling to grasp?...

    Unsurprisingly, I don't think the distinction is quite as clear cut as you imply.[/QUOTE]
    I'm still having trouble grasping it, I'd appreciate you expanding on your post.[/QUOTE]What specifically...
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    Unsurprisingly, I don't think the distinction is...

    Unsurprisingly, I don't think the distinction is quite as clear cut as you imply.
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    I'd assumed you were implying the way the claim...

    Is "Surströmming is disgusting" a realist position?[/QUOTE]

    De gustibus non est disputandum.[/QUOTE]I'd assumed you were implying the way the claim is structured was what makes it a realist...
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    Apologies. My implied slight was unfair and...

    You know it isn't as simple as that. It depends on context (Angra in post #281: "the term 'mind-independent' is used in a widely variable manner.")

    At this point it's not clear to me whether use...
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    I think the problem is that we start with very...

    Well, maybe we just use language very differently. [/QUOTE]I think the problem is that we start with very different assumptions. There is much here that I'd like to clarify and challenge but I have...
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    You surely realise by now that we antirealists...

    It should be easy[/QUOTE]

    You surely realise by now that we antirealists really struggle to understand the realist position- it simply doesn't make any sense to us.

    Anyway, apologies if you...
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    No problem.:) I assume it was a simple...

    It may be that I misunderstood your question. Apologies if I did. Genuine mistake on my part.[/QUOTE]

    No problem.:)

    I assume it was a simple misreading. The question was straightforward and...
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    In case there's any doubt, I never intended to...

    In case there's any doubt, I never intended to suggest I was quoting B20, I was simply making use of his example ('the cancer patient').
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    We appear to be talking past each other. You have...

    We appear to be talking past each other. You have said this:



    Yes. [/QUOTE]

    and this:
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    Really? I'm confused. Would the statement...

    Yes. [/QUOTE]
    Really?



    I'm confused. Would the statement "Bill has cancer." be objective or subjective?
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    ruby sparks Are you saying that no...

    ruby sparks

    Are you saying that no proposition/statement can ever be objective (because they always express the speaker's belief)?
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    No problem, it's not easy to explain. The...

    No problem, it's not easy to explain.



    The objectivity we're attempting pin down is that of the claim "It is morally acceptable". The attitude of the patient has no bearing on the objectivity...
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    But it does. If evaluative attitudes (call...

    The first part (in blue) implies that the truth does not depend on evaluative attitudes (etc), but the second (in red) implies that the truth does depend on evaluative attitudes (etc).

    In the...
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    This appears to be in line with my view (this is...

    This appears to be in line with my view (this is assuming what you say here is intended to represent what I agreed with B20 in post #300). I have no idea if it comports precisely with RS's view.
    ...
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    This is bordering on the manic obsessive. Can...

    This is bordering on the manic obsessive.

    Can you please explain to me why it's so desperately important to you to know if my views are precisely the same as RS's?
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    Let me remind you of what you say I'm mistaken...

    No, I am saying that you are very probably mistaken,[/QUOTE]

    Let me remind you of what you say I'm mistaken about:



    My statement here (in bold) is a value assessment based on what, in my...
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    Are you saying you have reason to not accept my...

    The reasons have been explained in detail in my posts.[/QUOTE]

    Are you saying you have reason to not accept my sincere claim that I do not have sufficient information to make the assessment you're...
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    But you're wrong and you repeat your error: ...

    As I explained carefully, it does, and further, it is true. [/quote]

    But you're wrong and you repeat your error:



    This is a conditional statement of the form "if-then".

    The "then" clause...
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    I have no idea what distinction you're trying...

    You did not make just the claim that you were in no position to know what ruby sparks precisely means by 'objective'. Rather, you claimed that you were in no position to tell whether your definition...
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    Only if I were a mind reader. :confused: ...

    I think either you are in a position to comment on that, [/quote]

    Only if I were a mind reader.



    :confused:

    How on earth can what I mean by 'objective' bear on my ability to know what RS...
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    I'm not sure what you think I can add. I'm...

    I'm not sure what you think I can add.

    I'm reasonably happy with the idea that, in my view, 'objective' means independent of anyone's subjective opinions, attitudes or feelings. I'm in no position...
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    Sorry, I don't understand this response.

    I can't possibly comment on what you claim is your experience, but I can tell you that on this discussion board, the only occasions, that I can find, on which mind independence (or very similar...
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    You're missing the point. I don't think anyone...

    You're missing the point.

    I don't think anyone has claimed that 'mind independent' can only mean one thing. I certainly haven't.

    I do not know where you get that that sense is the most common...
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