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Thread: Pantheism and panpsychism

  1. Top | #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by veclock View Post
    Why would a proto conscious property of physics be too far?
    Because it makes no sense.

    A consciousness has a purpose (If free will exists).

    It helps with survival.

    A proto conscious helps with nothing.

    It has no reason to exist.

    No reason to think it exists.

    Consciousness is the end result of a specific complexity, a brain.

    No need to have more than a specific complexity to theorize a consciousness could arise out of it.

    Proto consciousness, whatever that might be, is not needed.

  2. Top | #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by veclock View Post
    Why would a proto conscious property of physics be too far?
    Because it makes no sense.

    A consciousness has a purpose (If free will exists).

    It helps with survival.

    A proto conscious helps with nothing.

    It has no reason to exist.

    No reason to think it exists.

    Consciousness is the end result of a specific complexity, a brain.

    No need to have more than a specific complexity to theorize a consciousness could arise out of it.

    Proto consciousness, whatever that might be, is not needed.
    Oh yes, that's a very good point.
    Since we're in the metaphysics and the philosophy part of the forum... I can think of one philosophical/metaphysical argument why proto consciousness is needed.
    I mentioned it briefly before. Maybe a subjective property is needs for existence to make sense at all. Imagine our universe sprung into existence and slowly faded away without any subjective experience of it.
    After it's death, no trace of it.. Wouldn't that be almost as real as any fictional universe...? I guess it's similar to the classic "If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"
    Not saying it's a good argument or anything, but if proto consciousness is real it might be a metaphysical necessity in this way.

    I also think Max Tegmarks theory is interesting, that it's more a case of a state of matter / information process. But then that leads to some other wacky consequences that we were discussing earlier...
    Tegmark is revolving his idea around that consciousness is an emergent phenomena that is greater than its parts. Comparing it to different fluid properties like viscosity etc. My only problem with that is that everything he listed is governed by fundamental physics, namely movement of particles. The hard problem of consciousness is not solved by that. However I think that his theory about the mathematical universe, that math gives rise to physics, helps with his argument, because then both physics and consciousness is fundamentally mathematics/information processing.

    So while Penrose and Hameroff tries to solve the hard problem by combining physics and consciousness in the realm of physics,
    Tegmark is trying to solve it by combining them both in the realm of mathematics.

  3. Top | #153
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    I don't think the universe cares if anything notices it.

    You are not showing how proto-consciousness in itself has a use.

    It is not a consciousness. So what is it doing?

    I think proto-consciousness is an easy answer that doesn't really answer anything.

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