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Thread: Consciousness

  1. Top | #2221
    Contributor DBT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    You are funny, Mr Untermensche....understanding the brain and consciousness is a work in progress, but nobody except fringe eccentrics cling to the idea of autonomous consciousness, or brain as a receiver. There is more than sufficient evidence to show that brain state relates to state of consciousness. That evidence is your downfall. Only in a manner of speaking, because you never had a position to fall from.
    Your ignorant objection to an "autonomous consciousness", when you have no understanding of consciousness is amusing.
    My position doesn't matter. I simply describe the current state of the research and back what I say with links and quotes to research and researchers....you on the other hand are the one arguing for autonomous consciousness in the face of all evidence to the contrary, dismissing what the researchers are saying and what the evidence is supporting. That is your tragedy.

  2. Top | #2222
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post

    Your ignorant objection to an "autonomous consciousness", when you have no understanding of consciousness is amusing.
    My position doesn't matter. I simply describe the current state of the research and back what I say with links and quotes to research and researchers....you on the other hand are the one arguing for autonomous consciousness in the face of all evidence to the contrary, dismissing what the researchers are saying and what the evidence is supporting. That is your tragedy.
    You wouldn't be able to pass any test I gave you.

    I could show you brain activity all day and you would not be able to make one comment about it.

    Because you don't have the slightest clue what any of it means.

  3. Top | #2223
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    Quote Originally Posted by fromderinside View Post
    The brain does the work of moving the arm. The brain does the work of putting together the information anticipatory of any action at all. Conscious is just a convenient term naive humans use as an excuse for claiming they are actually in charge of the machine. Originally the ability to distinguish food from other was considered what conscious meant. It was only after man developed language that he was able to attribute, quite erroneously, what he wanted as the stuff of being conscious. Conscious is a label for a process the human brain, primarily, carries out in doing things. It is not a thing inherent in man, it is code for what man does when he thinks, another code word, he's intending, yet another code word.

    You use and demands are so far off the mark it is remarkable that anyone even tries to inform you of your obvious lack of understanding of the subject.
    Unfalsifiable. With today's understandings.

    Therefore not science.

    Also meaningless.

    Claiming the brain is doing something but not being able to demonstrate it in the least is an empty claim.

  4. Top | #2224
    Quantum Hot Dog Kharakov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by none View Post
    sky is falling is a reference to the claims of metaphysics, gibberish is the reference
    I see.
    I don't.

  5. Top | #2225
    Contributor fromderinside's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by fromderinside View Post
    Conscious is a label for a process the human brain, primarily, carries out in doing things.


    Yada

    yada

    yada

    Claiming the brain is doing something but not being able to demonstrate it in the least is an empty claim.
    Input any stimulus into the awake human brain. If the human owning the brain responds appropriately to the stimulus he's conscious.

    Feed a stimulus into the brain and record an appropriate number of ms later if the part is in the pathway of the stimulus path the stimulus is in the stimulus path.

    Record a minimum number of ms later and a muscle responds the stimulus is linked to the muscle through the brain.

    If the response isn't a reflex it will take longer to occur than will a reflex.

    If the response does take longer it can be said to be mediated.

    You find a way to demonstrate these verifiable and repeatable claims are empty.

  6. Top | #2226
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    Quote Originally Posted by fromderinside View Post
    Blah.

    Blah.

    Blah.

    Blah. Blah. Blah. Blah.

    I couldn't pass one test given, but I can pretend to understand something about brain activity.
    Knowing the timing of activity you don't understand does not give you understanding of the activity.

  7. Top | #2227
    Elder Contributor bilby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post

    You really aren't reading anything I say, or it is being filtered by your beliefs to the point where your interpretation of what I say bears no resemblance to what I actually write.

    Of course this is to be expected....how else can you maintain an untenable set of beliefs that have no merit.
    This is a complete dodge.

    The fact is when looking at brain activity nobody understands which of it is related to consciousness and which is not.

    Nothing about the activity is understood.

    Stimulating one part of the brain and getting a subjective report in no way implies all the activity involved in the report occurred at that location.

    Your claims are absurd, that's why you can't defend them. Your Emperor has no clothes.
    Saying "I don't understand" is a laudable and virtuous position to take about any topic where you are clueless; It invites an attempt to understand that which is currently obscure.

    Saying "nobody understands" is a childish and absurd position to take about any topic where you are clueless; It declares your determination not to learn, and is by definition a statement that you cannot possibly be qualified to make.

    You need to stop saying 'nobody understands', and to realize that the only part of that claim that can possibly be within your ability to confirm, is your own lack of understanding.

    If you claim that nobody understands, then you imply that you do not understand. And if you do not understand, then you imply that you are unqualified to know whether or not anyone else understands. Your position is self refuting.



    Note that the above applies to ANY field of study, and is not specific to the current topic in any way.

  8. Top | #2228
    Contributor DBT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post

    My position doesn't matter. I simply describe the current state of the research and back what I say with links and quotes to research and researchers....you on the other hand are the one arguing for autonomous consciousness in the face of all evidence to the contrary, dismissing what the researchers are saying and what the evidence is supporting. That is your tragedy.
    You wouldn't be able to pass any test I gave you.

    Given the brand of 'logic' you have displayed on these threads, nobody could pass. You have your own unique rules, sort of like Trump with his 'alternative facts'

    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    I could show you brain activity all day and you would not be able to make one comment about it.
    I could make any number of comments, and have done just that. Another example of your 'logic'

    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    Because you don't have the slightest clue what any of it means.
    Which still ignores the fact that successful predictions of decisions (readiness potential/unconscious information processing) before they are consciously made by a subject - based on fMRI imaging - has already been achieved...this being a comment that according to you I cannot make.

  9. Top | #2229
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    Quote Originally Posted by bilby View Post
    Saying "I don't understand" is a laudable and virtuous position to take about any topic where you are clueless; It invites an attempt to understand that which is currently obscure.

    Saying "nobody understands" is a childish and absurd position to take about any topic where you are clueless; It declares your determination not to learn, and is by definition a statement that you cannot possibly be qualified to make.

    You need to stop saying 'nobody understands', and to realize that the only part of that claim that can possibly be within your ability to confirm, is your own lack of understanding.

    If you claim that nobody understands, then you imply that you do not understand. And if you do not understand, then you imply that you are unqualified to know whether or not anyone else understands. Your position is self refuting.



    Note that the above applies to ANY field of study, and is not specific to the current topic in any way.
    Pretending to understand things you don't is ignorance.

    When a thing is not understood, like brain activity in regards to consciousness, and that fact is acknowledged, we call that honesty.

    And this only has to be said to children but claiming one thing, how brain activity results in conscious experience, is not understood does not in any way imply any other thing is not understood.

    It's a shame I have to deal with people who do not even understand simple things. When one has no logical foundation everything they build is absurd.

  10. Top | #2230
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    I could show you brain activity all day and you would not be able to make one comment about it.
    I could make any number of comments, and have done just that. Another example of your 'logic'
    I presented images of brain activity. PET scans to be specific.

    You were not able to make one comment about them.

    You lie.

    Which still ignores the fact that successful predictions of decisions (readiness potential/unconscious information processing) before they are consciously made by a subject - based on fMRI imaging - has already been achieved...this being a comment that according to you I cannot make.
    You ignore what is actually being done and what very specific hoops people must jump through to get any kind of results.

    Using a computer to make associations of large areas of some kind of "activity" to subjective reports or a choice between right and left hand is not understanding any of the activity. It is just a trick. Really a worthless trick that provides no information about the nature of the underlying activity.

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