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Thread: Consciousness

  1. Top | #2271
    Contributor DBT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Awareness of an external event cannot precede information input related to that event via the senses.
    I can imagine my arm moving before I actually move it.

    Which still ignores how your experience is being generated, or the unconscious activity that precedes (milliseconds) your imagination of your arm moving before your move it. Your brain producing both your conscious experience of imagining lifting your arm and the motor actions involved in lifting your arm for whatever reason the thought and desire emerged in the first place.

    That is what you habitually ignore, that being what the evidence supports.

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    Contributor fromderinside's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by fromderinside View Post
    My view is there are behavioral possibilities being processed all the time many competing for control or advantage in decision process. Several are at various stages of preparation at any given time. The one chosen often is not the one most likely up to the point of no return which may vary depending on the value changes at the last movement. In any case every one is prepped prior to execution responding to each of its drivers from past activity. No veto anywhere, just computations in likelihood processes.

    If you've ever watched a moth or a butterfly in flight you'd know what I write is correct.
    Again, you don't even entertain the possibility that consciousness can direct activity under some circumstances.

    And since so little is known of brain activity and nothing of the activity that results in consciousness is understood it is easy to claim our experience of having to do "something" to move the arm is a fantasy.
    I need more than faith to entertain such views. You haven't overcome my contention that the conscious is an illusion, I supported that view with will debunking, the current conversation, failure to find unique causality beyond my statement on determinism below, and social social being rationals and evidence.

    Second I've found determinism pervasive in the world making any claim of consciousness or will impossible. To be precise
    The world is governed by (or is under the sway of) determinism if and only if, given a specified way things are at a time t, the way things go thereafter is fixed as a matter of natural law.
    . No logical rewriting of that results in a conscious, or, gives hope to the idea that since we don't know all that much about the brain it will be found that there is a rewriting of natural law.

  3. Top | #2273
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post

    I can imagine my arm moving before I actually move it.

    Which still ignores how your experience is being generated, or the unconscious activity that precedes (milliseconds) your imagination of your arm moving before your move it. Your brain producing both your conscious experience of imagining lifting your arm and the motor actions involved in lifting your arm for whatever reason the thought and desire emerged in the first place.

    That is what you habitually ignore, that being what the evidence supports.
    You don't have the slightest clue how any aspect of experience is generated.

    Your pretend knowledge is only for some pretend world.

  4. Top | #2274
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    Quote Originally Posted by fromderinside View Post
    I need more than faith to entertain such views. You haven't overcome my contention that the conscious is an illusion, I supported that view with will debunking, the current conversation, failure to find unique causality beyond my statement on determinism below, and social social being rationals and evidence.
    Sure you need more than faith.

    But all we have is our experience.

    Either the brain is a great deceiver for no known reason.

    Or experience is truthful and our understandings are very preliminary.

  5. Top | #2275
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    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post

    Sure you need more than faith.

    But all we have is our experience.

    Either the brain is a great deceiver for no known reason.

    Or experience is truthful and our understandings are very preliminary.
    Our experience is only as good as we develop it. Most do a lousy job. It is never truthful or demonstrates much fidelity. Just one example of how flawed and untruthful it is: No unarmed black would ever die at the hands of a white cop, nor ,would any cop who shot an unarmed black get off. So you great deceiver theory gets kudos. Oh, and the reasons are know which makes it all the worse.

    Glittering generalities are not admitted in rational discussion.

    Hope you enjoyed your teleological flag waving.

    We have empiricism as an approach which tends to cancel out bias and ax grinding and we have the experimental method from which we have been building and understanding of the laws of nature to which we are privy. Experience is a poor second or third here. Even rationalism pales in the glaring light of understanding provided by those.

  6. Top | #2276
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    Quote Originally Posted by fromderinside View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post

    Sure you need more than faith.

    But all we have is our experience.

    Either the brain is a great deceiver for no known reason.

    Or experience is truthful and our understandings are very preliminary.
    Our experience is only as good as we develop it. Most do a lousy job. It is never truthful or demonstrates much fidelity. Just one example of how flawed and untruthful it is: No unarmed black would ever die at the hands of a white cop, nor ,would any cop who shot an unarmed black get off. So you great deceiver theory gets kudos. Oh, and the reasons are know which makes it all the worse.

    Glittering generalities are not admitted in rational discussion.

    Hope you enjoyed your teleological flag waving.

    We have empiricism as an approach which tends to cancel out bias and ax grinding and we have the experimental method from which we have been building and understanding of the laws of nature to which we are privy. Experience is a poor second or third here. Even rationalism pales in the glaring light of understanding provided by those.
    We?

    You have no more empirical evidence of consciousness than I do.

    You don't have the slightest clue what it actually is.

    Looking at brain activity and pretending to understand it is all I can see on your side here.

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