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Thread: DERAIL: So the Crucifixion - What's up with that?

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    DERAIL: So the Crucifixion - What's up with that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruth Harris View Post

    And this is the road I was trying (apparently unsuccessfully) to avoid. When I started this thread I just wanted to answer the question in the thread title and make my personal stance as a Christian clear.

    Each of us thinks that we have a "more accurate view" due to our beliefs. That is a fair characterization. I did try to make it very clear that I was speaking from faith only and knew that there would be those who would pounce on that and demand "proof" of the validity of my faith. That was never my intent and I thought it was clearly stated in my opening post. You might think that this is a cop out and maybe it is on my part, but I honestly don't think that I can ever provide sufficient evidence for you of the existence of God, or you provide the same for me that there is no God.

    Your last sentence is exactly right. That is why I did not attempt to make the standard arguments part of this conversation and in fact was trying very hard to be perfectly clear that I would not.

    Ruth
    I don't think it's a cop out. You can have whatever positions you want for whatever reasons you want and the standards necessary for the rationales is that they're satisfying to you, not that they're satisfying to others. If you try to impose your positions onto others, then that would switch around but you're not doing that and you've made it clear that you have no interest in justifying your beliefs from any other standpoint, so it's fine.

    It's actually more satisfying to me to see someone who doesn't try and twist logic into nonsensical intellectual knots in order to jam the square peg of their faith into the round hole of science. Those arguments tend to get stupid fast.

    One thing I am curious about, however, is when you talked in your OP about "Christ died on the cross to pay for those sins". I've never really gotten the point of that. Jesus was God, so why go through the dog-and-pony show of putting on a human meatsuit and pretending to die in order to forgive us for our sins instead of just forgiving us for our sins without all the drama? It seems like an inefficient waste of his time and I don't get why we should be impressed by it.

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    Veteran Member Lion IRC's Avatar
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    Atheists anthropomorphising God and His motives again?

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    Veteran Member Sarpedon's Avatar
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    How can you accuse us of anthropomorphizing God, when your religion is ALL ABOUT how God became a man?

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    Veteran Member Lion IRC's Avatar
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    I think God is reaching out to us - offering us hope.
    Showing by example that death is not the end.
    Sin is not a terminal disease.
    God and His Son can easily 'talk the talk' but on the road to Calvary we see Him walk the walk.

    I look at statues of Buddha and they are all smiling - contented.
    I look at The Cross and I think, here's Someone who really understands suffering.

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    Veteran Member Lion IRC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarpedon View Post
    How can you accuse us of anthropomorphizing God, when your religion is ALL ABOUT how God became a man?
    It's a two-way street.
    If the atheist (counter-apologist) contends against my explanation of God's empathy and love for humans, labelling it 'anthropomorphism', then they are applying their own human ideas to what they think God would or wouldn't do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    I look at statues of Buddha and they are all smiling - contented.
    I look at The Cross and I think, here's Someone who really understands suffering.
    Then you're not fully understanding what the Buddha meant by "suffering". You'll need to study Buddhism more if you're interested. But that's a whole other conversation for a whole other thread.

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    Veteran Member Lion IRC's Avatar
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    I know what Buddha 'meant'.
    I said "understands sufferering"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    Atheists anthropomorphising God and His motives again?
    Yes. I am curious about his motives. Christians discuss the crucifixion as something that one should be impressed by and I don't know why. If the answer to his motives is "Because gods are weird" or "Because eternity is a really, really long time and sometimes immortals need to do random shit just to fill the day", then fine, it's understandable why he went this route.

    One of the tenets of Christianity (as I understand it) seems to be that God is a rational actor who has good reasons behind the things he says and does. For instance, when he said "Thou shalt not kill", it was because he thought that there were good reasons to not go around killing people and we could get why that's a decent commandment to have. He didn't just say "Thou shalt not ..." and then flipped open a dictionary and banned us from doing whatever the seventh word on the page was for no particular reason beyond that he'd thought up nine commandments and wanted to make it a round number.

    So yes, I'm anthropomorphizing God - in the sense that the reasons that God does things are understandable by humans. If that's not the case and his motivations were simply a mystery which our tiny and limited minds cannot comprehend, then what would be a reason for any of us to ascribe more WOW factor to "Jesus got crucified" than we do to "Bob made a sandwich"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    I think God is reaching out to us - offering us hope.
    Showing by example that death is not the end.
    Sin is not a terminal disease.
    God and His Son can easily 'talk the talk' but on the road to Calvary we see Him walk the walk.

    I look at statues of Buddha and they are all smiling - contented.
    I look at The Cross and I think, here's Someone who really understands suffering.
    I don't know. I think that a decent chunk of humanity goes through a shitload more pain in their lives than someone who dealt with a bit of inconvenience over a long weekend. It just seems so trivial - an immortal guy who pretended to die to make a point which didn't need making. Also, he's omniscient - he understands all forms of suffering perfectly without the need to experience them directly, so it's not like it gave him some kind of perspective he didn't previously have. I get how a human or a limited and minor deity would perhaps gain something from this, but not an Omni-dude.

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    Veteran Member DrZoidberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    I look at The Cross and I think, here's Someone who really understands suffering.
    Wait wait. An omnipotent agent only suffers if it chooses to suffer. The whole point of suffering is that we don't chose it. It's something we endure. The Christian God didn't endure shit. Which the resurrection proves. Jesus had nothing to be afraid of. That's not suffering.

    An omnipotent agent can't relate to something that isn't omnipotent. An omnipotent God cannot understand humans. Do you feel you can relate to an ant?

    Another thing that the resurrection proves is that God didn't sacrifice anything. An agent with infinite power can't sacrifice anything. That's like making a rock so heavy that God can't lift it.

    If you think your God understand suffering, you haven't thought it through. There's no way your God could.

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