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Thread: RussiaGate

  1. Top | #3061
    Elder Contributor barbos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KeepTalking View Post

    No, that would be news from the EU:
    EU charges Gazprom with market abuse
    2015 and it went nowhere.
    Quote Originally Posted by barbos View Post
    Russia is a legal successor of USSR, and you have never explained your actions of paying terrorists to kill Russians.
    You might want to read up on the Cold War, it was not all balloons and kittens. Also, it is supposed to be over, too bad Putin never got the memo.
    Here is a news for you, Cold War never stopped, US refused to stop it.
    Quote Originally Posted by barbos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KeepTalking
    Quote Originally Posted by barbos View Post
    Then he will switch to BLM and COVID-19 response
    By all accounts, the COVID-19 response in Russia (or is the new USSR?) is nearly as bad, so that won't get him anywhere. Not that it has anything to do with the topic at hand.
    Really?
    Really:
    How Russias Coronavirus Crisis Got So Bad
    WHO Coronavirus Disease (COVID-19) Dashboard - The dark blue countries are those that have had the worst response to the pandemic.
    Nobody says it was great, but not even close to what US has. Putin&Co don't go to national TV and attack mask wearing.

    It does appear that since June, Russia is improving, despite a response that was nearly as poor as the US response. How much of that is due to the control of data from the Russian government is anyone's guess. Now that the White House has control of US data, expect it to improve remarkably as well. I am sure that is one of the things Trump learned from Putin in his monthly 1-on-1's with his boss.

    Russia is not China, you can't suppress data on such a scale in Russia.

  2. Top | #3062
    Industrial Grade Linguist Copernicus's Avatar
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    By calling Russia the "legal successor of the USSR", barbos admits what we all know to be true--that the Soviet Union was nothing more than a continuation of the tsarist Russian Empire, where ethnic Russians dominated every other ethnic group that they could conquer. There is nothing "legal" about that, since the populations of the conquered peoples and countries did not agree to the arrangement. Putin, as barbos has described him, is viewed by many Russians as a "benevolent tsar". Putin sees himself as the sovereign in control of the empire, and he wants to expand it. We have seen that most recently in his sending of Russian-controlled mercenaries to meddle in Belarus. (See Russia and Belarus at odds over arrest of suspected mercenaries) Putin's fan club has shrunk considerably in the past few years, especially after he ran away from taking responsibility for his botched handling of the pandemic. Nevertheless, he has taken on the burden of having himself coronated as essentially President for Life. IOW, de facto dictator of the Russian Empire. He will keep his country stuck in this cold war mentality until he somehow falls from power.

    The next President of the US will have to clean up Donald Trump's mess, and Russia will then become more of a focus of attention than it is now. Putin's puppet will no longer be installed in power and able to run interference for him. We saw how well that played out with Yanukovych in Ukraine, where the Russian-backed quisling was sent packing by a popular uprising. Trump's demise will be somewhat less messy, although I wouldn't mind seeing him move into exile in Russia. Maybe he could share dachas with Edward Snowden.

    Putin was an utter fool to engage in his scheme of meddling in the 2016 election. He had a spectacular success and was able to celebrate every day since then. But where did he think this was going to end up? Did he think he could pull off the same trick again? Our presidents only last for four years, and then they can only get reelected once. So any victory of that sort was never going to be permanent. A day of reckoning was always going to come, and that day will be much harder on Russia, the US, and the rest of the world than it needed to be. Trump is a bona fide moron, and Putin is a fairly competent administrator. But he is no strategic genius. Now he must realize that Trump's demise is not going to go well for him. A lot of Americans are going to be calling for payback, and there are few Putin defenders in the government other than the Trump cabal.

  3. Top | #3063
    Elder Contributor barbos's Avatar
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    Copernicus and his unstoppable stream of ideas again.
    I merely meant that Russian Federation is by international law a legal successor of USSR. Russia inherited all the debt, foreign property and treaties of the USSR, also nukes. Former Republics got none of that.

    Also, stop projecting, virtually all republics in USSR (and Eastern Europe allies too) had it better than Russians, that's basically how it worked.

  4. Top | #3064
    Industrial Grade Linguist Copernicus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by barbos View Post
    Copernicus and his unstoppable stream of ideas again.
    I merely meant that Russian Federation is by international law a legal successor of USSR. Russia inherited all the debt, foreign property and treaties of the USSR, also nukes. Former Republics got none of that.

    Also, stop projecting, virtually all republics in USSR (and Eastern Europe allies too) had it better than Russians, that's basically how it worked.
    It is typical that you would like to rewrite history, but the fact is that Ukraine held a third of the Soviet nuclear arsenal when the Soviet Union collapsed. It voluntarily agreed to destroy and relinquish all of that in return for guarantees in the Budapest Memorandum, which the Russian government signed. Is this the "legality" that you were referring to? I only ask, because the very first article in that agreement was:

    "1. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine."

    So, give back Ukraine's territory. Then we'll talk about Russia being a "legal successor" to those weapons.

    As for your ridiculous assertion that "virtually all republics in USSR (and Eastern Europe allies too) had it better than Russians, that's basically how it worked", you are utterly out of touch with the reality of what the relationship between Russia and all of the subjugated internal and satellite states was. It's no secret that the Soviet military occupied and dominated those territories. Poland, Hungary, and Czechoslovakia all had popular uprisings that attempted to loosen the yoke. When Gorbachev finally agreed to tear down the wall that was built to keep East Germans from escaping to the West, there was universal joy and celebration. (Well, maybe not in the offices of the KGB in Eastern Germany, where Putin had spent years as a counterintelligence officer.)

  5. Top | #3065
    Elder Contributor barbos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Copernicus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by barbos View Post
    Copernicus and his unstoppable stream of ideas again.
    I merely meant that Russian Federation is by international law a legal successor of USSR. Russia inherited all the debt, foreign property and treaties of the USSR, also nukes. Former Republics got none of that.

    Also, stop projecting, virtually all republics in USSR (and Eastern Europe allies too) had it better than Russians, that's basically how it worked.
    It is typical that you would like to rewrite history, but the fact is that Ukraine held a third of the Soviet nuclear arsenal when the Soviet Union collapsed. It voluntarily agreed to destroy and relinquish all of that in return for guarantees in the Budapest Memorandum, which the Russian government signed. Is this the "legality" that you were referring to? I only ask, because the very first article in that agreement was:

    "1. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine."

    So, give back Ukraine's territory. Then we'll talk about Russia being a "legal successor" to those weapons.

    As for your ridiculous assertion that "virtually all republics in USSR (and Eastern Europe allies too) had it better than Russians, that's basically how it worked", you are utterly out of touch with the reality of what the relationship between Russia and all of the subjugated internal and satellite states was. It's no secret that the Soviet military occupied and dominated those territories. Poland, Hungary, and Czechoslovakia all had popular uprisings that attempted to loosen the yoke. When Gorbachev finally agreed to tear down the wall that was built to keep East Germans from escaping to the West, there was universal joy and celebration. (Well, maybe not in the offices of the KGB in Eastern Germany, where Putin had spent years as a counterintelligence officer.)
    Rewrite history?
    Russia is a legal successor of USRR regardless of anything, that's just legal and historical fact. And USA lost Crimea because they broke their promise not to expand NATO into Eastern Europe. Russia did not want Ukrainian nukes, It was USA/Europe who forced them to send nukes to Russia.
    Now about Eastern Europe and Soviet Republic. Nobody denies that they had these revolts, and we have been over this many times. I merely commented on your projected idea about Russia (and Russians) subjugating other ethnicities, like some kind of colonialism you are very familiar with. That's bullcrap and not how communism operated. Russian Federation was a donor for the rest of USSR and USSR was a donor for Warsaw Pact countries. That was the only way to kept it from dissolving.

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