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Thread: Songs about women not getting enough orgasms

  1. Top | #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronburgundy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post

    You need to read more carefully. I did not claim that no women felt shame, just not women that I know.
    IOW, in response to Dr. Z's statement about many women, you countered with a meaningless reference to the tiny non-representative group of women you personally know who are highly atypical of the culture Dr. Z is referring to? Seems an odd approach to an honest argument. Silly me. I assumed you were attempting to make a point that you thought had some logical relevance to the post you were responding to.
    In other words, I made a purposefully limited and completely honest statement based on real women I know. I am actually a woman. Dr. Z is not a woman. He made statements based on some study which he has not linked but he claims to have read, supporting his position.

    But he has a penis, so obviously, he knows what he's talking about with regards to women's orgasms.


    Men and women both experience shame and discomfort with their bodies, their sexuality, their need or desire for sex.
    True, which makes it highly implausible there is not "a single women [you] know who is ashamed of her body or ashamed of liking sex."
    It suggests you not only offered a meaningless personal anecdote as evidence, but actually made it up just to have something to make Dr. Z look wrong for his rather modest statement about women and sexual shame.
    No. You are simply much more willing to believe a man about women's orgasms than you are a woman. Basically because it a)supports a love of porn and b) foists women's lack of orgasms on their lack of self esteem and not watching porn rather than anything that a man might be doing or not doing.

    I totally get that.

    As for your implication that there are no difference in cultural gender roles regarding acceptable sexual promiscuity and gratification, that is only slightly less absurd, demonstrably false, and contradicted by all feminist analyses than the implication that women don't feel shame about sex.
    Inference is not the same thing as implication.
    Anticipating that you will once again deny the obvious implication behind your comment, mentioning male sexual shame only has any relevance to anything in this thread, if the implication is that men are made to feel equally ashamed as women about their sexual actions and pleasure seeking. Unless that it the case, then Dr. Z's point is unaffected by the fact that men feel some shame as well.

    I keep forgetting: the only subject that counts is women's shame/discomfort/how women fail men/fail to achieve orgasm in the way that men feel they should.

    Men are great. Men have no problems, no issues with self esteem, no hang ups about sex or sexuality. Which is why men's sexuality and sexual hangups and insecurities never, ever, ever need to be discussed or mentioned. Ever. End of story.


    And pop culture strongly promotes more sexual shame for women than men. While that is slowly shifting, the difference is still notable.
    Therefore, Dr. Z's point is extremely valid and your grasping at straws trying to find an excuse to disagree with him. Also, pop culture is heavily influenced by religious attitudes. Again, that is also shifting but most vestiges of sexual shame in pop culture has its roots in religion. In fact, modern pop culture facilitated by tech from the radio to TV to the internet has been attacked by most Abrahamic religions for not showing sufficient sex shame, especially regarding female sexuality.

    No, I was making a very limited statement. Dr. Zoidberg is making very broad statements that he wants to apply to ALL women. You seem to feel that Dr. Z is justified. I wonder why that is.

  2. Top | #92
    Super Moderator RavenSky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post
    Fifty Shades? WTF? That's what you think I've read? You are daft.

    And what's this 'innocent little flower' crappola? Sounds like just one giant projection of your own hangups and not any experience of any woman I know or have ever known.
    On the topic of projecting.

    I didn't say you read Fifty Shades of Grey. I said a shit tonne of women did. The fact that you can't relate to those women, I think, says a lot..
    I think it says a lot, too, but not what you may want it to mean. 50 Shades of Grey was about as far from genuine BDSM writing as it is possible to get. It was nothing more than the usual "romance" novel formula with a little bit of pseudo-kink added for notoriety. All that bad boy Mr. Grey needed was the love of a good woman to turn him right around. And frankly, if anyone was reading that rot because they genuinely wanted to explore BDSM, Fifty Shades is worse than bad porn. It is downright dangerous as an "educational tool"

  3. Top | #93
    Veteran Member braces_for_impact's Avatar
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    This whole thread reminds me of an old, but good meme.

    Men, sometimes, it's good to know when to shut up.

    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by braces_for_impact; 06-18-2017 at 11:21 PM. Reason: For wisdom's sake

  4. Top | #94
    Veteran Member DrZoidberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RavenSky View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post

    On the topic of projecting.

    I didn't say you read Fifty Shades of Grey. I said a shit tonne of women did. The fact that you can't relate to those women, I think, says a lot..
    I think it says a lot, too, but not what you may want it to mean. 50 Shades of Grey was about as far from genuine BDSM writing as it is possible to get. It was nothing more than the usual "romance" novel formula with a little bit of pseudo-kink added for notoriety. All that bad boy Mr. Grey needed was the love of a good woman to turn him right around. And frankly, if anyone was reading that rot because they genuinely wanted to explore BDSM, Fifty Shades is worse than bad porn. It is downright dangerous as an "educational tool"
    That wasn't my point. My point is that a lot of women bought that and got turned on by it. Step 1 is figuring out what turns you on. Step 2 is figuring out how to do it safely. Both physically and psychologically. Fifty Shades of Grey seems to have helped women with the first part. I'm just basing that on sales figures of the book.

    I agree that it's a bad ideal for BDSM. The BDSM in that book was just sexual assault and rape. The "consent" was extorted. It also rests on the old trope that people are into BDSM because they've been psychologically damaged somehow. Yet, when researchers study it people into BDSM haven't been more traumatised than people in general.

    I still don't have a problem with the book. Whatever helps us to know ourselves better, I'm all for it. Ignorance is NOT bliss IMHO

  5. Top | #95
    Veteran Member DrZoidberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post
    In other words, I made a purposefully limited and completely honest statement based on real women I know. I am actually a woman. Dr. Z is not a woman. He made statements based on some study which he has not linked but he claims to have read, supporting his position.

    But he has a penis, so obviously, he knows what he's talking about with regards to women's orgasms.
    Because I'm a straight man I will come across more women sexually who are having orgasms than you. As well as a variety of women. I'm now assuming you are straight.

    You don't know any more than me about women's (plural) orgasms. You know about one woman's (singular) orgasms.

    I know fuck all about how it feels to have common erectile dysfunction problems in men in general, other than indirectly from theory and studies. Straight women though will have come across it more often, so have more experiences to draw upon. Even if the penis wasn't attached to them.

    Just because you are a woman you don't have magical mind-reading capabilities of other women. So lay off pretending that you do.

  6. Top | #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post
    In other words, I made a purposefully limited and completely honest statement based on real women I know. I am actually a woman. Dr. Z is not a woman. He made statements based on some study which he has not linked but he claims to have read, supporting his position.

    But he has a penis, so obviously, he knows what he's talking about with regards to women's orgasms.
    Because I'm a straight man I will come across more women sexually who are having orgasms than you. As well as a variety of women. I'm now assuming you are straight.
    I am straight but it is an assumption on your part that you have come across more women having orgasms than I have.

    You don't know any more than me about women's (plural) orgasms. You know about one woman's (singular) orgasms.
    Actually, I DO know more about women's orgasms than you do, if for no other reason than I have first hand experience that you lack. You only know hearsay --and whatever articles you've read. On the other hand, I have decades of personal experience, plenty of female friends, and I've probably read more articles about female sexuality than you have, including scholarly ones.

    On the other hand, I only know about men's orgasms from observation, conversations and again, reading a lot of articles. Presumably, you have some personal experience.

    I know fuck all about how it feels to have common erectile dysfunction problems in men in general, other than indirectly from theory and studies. Straight women though will have come across it more often, so have more experiences to draw upon. Even if the penis wasn't attached to them.
    Some straight women will have come across male sexual dysfunctions more often than you have. Personally, I have not.

    Just because you are a woman you don't have magical mind-reading capabilities of other women. So lay off pretending that you do.
    Again, I'm not the one pretending I have magical mind reading capabilities. What I do have is of personal experience. Decades of talking to other women. Decades of reading articles, including the Kinsey Report and some of Masters and Johnson's work (I used to work occasionally for a pair of psychologists). And I don't have the same kind of ego involved. Nor do I lump all women into the same pot. Nor do I regard Fifty Shades as porn. Just....boring and bad. And it is yet another assumption that I cannot relate to women who have read Fifty Shades. And a whole different ball of wax if you see Fifty Shades as being educational to women about what they might like sexually. Multiple layers of bad assumptions, including that Fifty Shades frees women to explore...anything other than bad romance with pseudokink and perhaps some erroneous ideas about consent...

  7. Top | #97
    Veteran Member DrZoidberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post
    Nor do I lump all women into the same pot.
    Welcome to the club. Neither do I.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post
    Nor do I regard Fifty Shades as porn. Just....boring and bad. And it is yet another assumption that I cannot relate to women who have read Fifty Shades. And a whole different ball of wax if you see Fifty Shades as being educational to women about what they might like sexually. Multiple layers of bad assumptions, including that Fifty Shades frees women to explore...anything other than bad romance with pseudokink and perhaps some erroneous ideas about consent...
    I don't have research to prove it, but I suspect that a large group of those reading Fifty Shades of Grey did it one-handed. I mean... why else read it? Except for those of us trying desperately to understand wtf the people reading it one-handed were going on about.

    I was on Tinder during the peak of Fifty Shades of Grey and it was a topic that came up a lot. I didn't bring it up once. A lot of ladies couldn't stop referencing it as something they wanted to experience.

    I think you're just completely wrong about the readers of Fifty Shades. If all women agree on what a shit book it was, how the hell did it become one of the best selling books of all time? I don't think the evidence is on your side here.

  8. Top | #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post

    Welcome to the club. Neither do I.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post
    Nor do I regard Fifty Shades as porn. Just....boring and bad. And it is yet another assumption that I cannot relate to women who have read Fifty Shades. And a whole different ball of wax if you see Fifty Shades as being educational to women about what they might like sexually. Multiple layers of bad assumptions, including that Fifty Shades frees women to explore...anything other than bad romance with pseudokink and perhaps some erroneous ideas about consent...
    I don't have research to prove it, but I suspect that a large group of those reading Fifty Shades of Grey did it one-handed. I mean... why else read it? Except for those of us trying desperately to understand wtf the people reading it one-handed were going on about.

    I was on Tinder during the peak of Fifty Shades of Grey and it was a topic that came up a lot. I didn't bring it up once. A lot of ladies couldn't stop referencing it as something they wanted to experience.

    I think you're just completely wrong about the readers of Fifty Shades. If all women agree on what a shit book it was, how the hell did it become one of the best selling books of all time? I don't think the evidence is on your side here.
    Again, you are making a lot of assumptions about me. I never said that no women were into it: I know women who were. Huge overlap with women who were into Twilight (I can't even...) I said I wasn't. I pretty much laughed and then groaned with a bunch of wtf??? I read about it, then read some reviews and summaries and even a little bit of the actual book (first in series only because why?). I found some of the premise to be quite alarming (issues of consent, etc.) and a lot of it just...a bad fantasy. Obviously it had its audience. Best case it was mildly pornographic fantasy. And not an educational tool/instructional manual. But perhaps it inspired some people. Did your Tinder dates also expect expensive gifts?

    Just for shits and giggles, I decided to google a summary of Fifty Shades Darker. I really think that you'd probably learn a lot more about real life women reading this than the actual book: Divided into chapters

    http://collegeatthirty.blogspot.com/...s-fifty_8.html
    Last edited by Toni; 06-19-2017 at 04:50 PM.

  9. Top | #99
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    There's too much bickering going on in this thread so let me introduce something new to argue about.

    I believe that many if not most women like sexual fantasy. Two books, which are probably out of print by now, but are well worth reading if you don't know much about this topic are "My Secret Garden" and "Forbidden Flowers." Both were written by Nancy Friday. They are compilations of women's sexual fantasies. And men might be surprised at the vast array of imaginative things we women think about during sex.

    Although I used to watch a lot of porn with my husband when we were younger, the truth is that my own fantasies were always a lot better than the porn. But, don't think that because a woman fantasizes about something that she wants to actually experience that fantasy in real life. The fantasies are just that. They are ways of using the imagination to enhance the sexual experience. We women are complicated. Pleasing a woman requires both the willingness of the partner to learn what turns her on, as well as the willingness of the women to be responsive. Being responsive might require a certain atmosphere and the ability to allow your mind to go wild. As George Clinton once said in the funk tune "Cosmic Slop", "Free your mind and your ass will follow." I imagine there are women who don't need those things, but they may be unusual.

    I've read that some women are anorgasmic or only capable of a single orgasm. There are people who are asexual too, so it's impossible to make accurate generalizations about all women, and things do change with age. What I could do in my twenties is no longer achievable in my 60s, but I still enjoy a very good sex life with my partner of almost forty years. I hope you all will find such sexual pleasure as you age. and I certainly won't tell anyone else what they need to do to have a satisfying sex life, but I do think having a vivid imagination never hurts. Just don't expect your partner to fulfill all of your fantasies.

    And if you think older adults having sex is icky, I really hope you'll change your mind before you get too old. I've had patients in their 80s ask me if it was okay to resume having sex after one of them had surgery. I've had a woman 80 years old recently ask me questions about the possibility of having sex with her new 72 year old boyfriend. Isn't it great that we humans can keep on getting it on long after we lose our ability to reproduce!

  10. Top | #100
    Veteran Member spikepipsqueak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
    I think you're just completely wrong about the readers of Fifty Shades. If all women agree on what a shit book it was, how the hell did it become one of the best selling books of all time? I don't think the evidence is on your side here.
    Notoriety often makes best sellers. I was volunteering in an op-shop when these books came out. The flood of them that were donated suggests that not many people thought it was worth keeping. The few people I talked to about it didn't talk about the ideas in it or other aspects, like literary value. They just wanted to make sure everybody knew they'd read it.

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