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Thread: Harvey Weinstein scandal

  1. Top | #411
    Contributor DrZoidberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSwizzle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSwizzle View Post
    You should start a separate thread because you are determined not to stay on topic.
    I think it is the topic.
    And every single person has told you they are not and still you persist. Stop spamming and start another thread.
    That doesn't make it true. Then I'll be the one guy who doesn't agree. I'm ok with being a special and unique little flower here.

  2. Top | #412
    Contributor ruby sparks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ruby sparks View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
    If a person invites somebody to their room, that's about as a clear an indicator that the other person is ever going to get.
    It's definitely possible you were misconstrued here. Even if you've invited someone into your room, even if it's a bedroom, they can still harass you (and worse), obviously.
    Yes, I agree. I hope I'm not coming across as defending that? My point is that we all up the game bit by bit. We make moves and the other's respond and thereby signal what is appropriate. Inviting somebody to your room is one such thing. Touching somebody on the back or arm comes before touching the face and neck, which follows by touching the naughty bits. Or a withdrawal of consent, in which it stops. Both parties need to be super attentive and sensitive to where it's going. Because this can all be extremely subtle.

    Here's an example I'm sure we've all experienced (or I hope you have). We're sitting talking. Then we stop talking. Look into each others eyes way too long and then we kiss. At no point does anybody ask "can I kiss you?". I think that is extremely rare. Instead the consent has to be implied. That's what's normal. And unless we're* discussing how normal people have sex, we're not really having a discussion.

    *I'm not talking about your in particular. I mean...we as in everybody discussing in this thread.
    You are interested in the fuzzy boundary between harassment and non-harassment. You are not really talking about what we might call 'clear cut' examples of either. I do think that's an interesting place to go and it is of course relevant to the topic.

    Yes, you are right, I have 'guessed consent' on many occasions and luckily I've been right almost all the time. I'm not saying I'm a saint. I've probably offended people lots of times without realising it, but hopefully not too often when it comes to sexual matters, because I generally keep my hands to myself and...whatever. I know other guys who are more forward. I know a guy whose strategy for getting laid on a night out was to be upfront about that being what he was looking for, take a lot of refusals, as many as it took, and waited for the one. I guess that that could be construed as harassment. Dunno.

    But anyhows, where I'm from, the guy generally has to make the running and make the moves, so there's always a risk.

    I don't think this applies to Dustin Hoffman, Harvey Weinstein much.

  3. Top | #413
    Contributor ruby sparks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
    I posted this talk earlier in this thread. It's by the social psychologist Carol Tavris. It's an excellent talk on exactly this. All her books and videos are fantastic btw, on a variety of topics. She's a genius. And funny. Anyhoo... she spells it out way better than I could.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGMi0UtvTIc
    Great video. Very egalitarian, fair-minded, empathetic, rational and as you say witty. It would be hard to imagine the exact same talk being given by a man and being seen as acceptable (and if delivered by a man using the same wit, there might even have been accusations of not taking a very serious matter seriously), so, all in all, great that the talk was delivered by a feminist woman.

  4. Top | #414
    Contributor blastula's Avatar
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    Celebrity chef Mario Batali out as 'The Chew' co-host amid allegations of sexual misconduct | abc13.com

    Another day, another harasser outed, but this story is notable for Batali's statement. He gave the fullest, most unqualified apology so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by Batali
    "I apologize to the people I have mistreated and hurt. Although the identities of most of the individuals mentioned in these stories have not been revealed to me, much of the behavior described does, in fact, match up with ways I have acted. That behavior was wrong and there are no excuses. I take full responsibility and am deeply sorry for any pain, humiliation or discomfort I have caused to my peers, employees, customers, friends and family.

    I have work to do to try to regain the trust of those I have hurt and disappointed. For this reason, I am going to step away from day-to-day operations of my businesses. We built these restaurants so that our guests could have fun and indulge, but I took that too far in my own behavior. I won't make that mistake again. I want any place I am associated with to feel comfortable and safe for the people who work or dine there.

    I know my actions have disappointed many people. The successes I have enjoyed are owned by everyone on my team. The failures are mine alone. To the people who have been at my side during this time - my family, my partners, my employees, my friends, my fans - I am grateful for your support and hopeful that I can regain your respect and trust. I will spend the next period of time trying to do that."

  5. Top | #415
    The Doctor's Wife RavenSky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSwizzle View Post

    And every single person has told you they are not and still you persist. Stop spamming and start another thread.
    That doesn't make it true. Then I'll be the one guy who doesn't agree. I'm ok with being a special and unique little flower here.
    What are you? 2-years old? Grow the fuck up and discuss issues like an adult. Your passive-aggressive whining & neg rep is juvenile What's the matter... couldn't stand it that I said I was going to ignore your tantrums in the thread so you had to take it behind the scenes too?

    You really are "a special and unique little flower" - and I don't mean that in a good way
    Last edited by RavenSky; 12-12-2017 at 02:30 AM.

  6. Top | #416
    The Doctor's Wife RavenSky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RavenSky View Post

    Dude, you have not yet actually presented any sort of an argument.

    You have only presented your own opinion over and over using an incorrect definition of sexual harassment. I have presented you with a factual sourced definition/explanation of "sexual harassment" which you have rejected with the false claim that it "only" applied to the workplace. You have failed to present any sort of factual sourced counter-definition/explanation of "sexual harassment" (your uninformed opinion doesn't count).

    In the meantime, several of us have stated why we disagree with your overall opinion on the topic, and all you have done is repeated the same opinion without expanding on it, while personally attacking us and whinging like a two-year-old.

    When you decide to post like an adult, I will decide then whether I feel like responding. In the meantime, enjoy your wallow.
    I'm not interested in discussing a fantasy of human sexuality and flirting. I'm only interested in discussing how people actually do it. It doesn't matter how much you insist, it's false. I worked in clubs and bars in over ten years l. That makes me an expert in how it's actually done.
    As did I - plus I've lived in the real world one hell of a lot longer than you have - so by your measure, I'm twice the expert you are.

    That official definition isn't good enough.
    I don't give a fuck what your OPINION is. You have added nothing valid to the conversation or the definition of sexual harassment.

    Anyway I tried. You can stay in fantasy land. I somehow don't think that's an adult discussion on this topic. Which is doubly worrying since #metoo is partly a witch hunt. It matters what regular people think. Since we're the mob.

    And you still owe an apology. I won't forget it.
    Don't hold your breath, because I owe you nothing

    I tried keeping a civil tone. You didn't.
    He claims after he hurls a few more bullshit insults

    You've handled yourself very badly in this thread IMHO
    Quit describing yourself. We all already know you blew it here.

    Now run along and neg rep me again because you are incapable of admitting you might be wrong on this topic and you are incapable of discussing anything like an adult.
    Last edited by RavenSky; 12-12-2017 at 02:31 AM.

  7. Top | #417
    The Doctor's Wife RavenSky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Osterman View Post
    Well, one can certainly have sexual harassment and/or rape in a long terms relationship, including marriage. It is also important to obtain consent there too. No-one should have to tolerate unwelcome sexual touching or flirting, irrespective of their relationship status.
    very true... and it wasn't so long ago that marital rape was not even recognized as a crime.

    I think popular fiction, movies and TV share a lot of the blame in generating a culture where consent is assumed. We are conditioned to find sexual advances normal even when explicit consent has not been obtained. James Bond just assumes the girl is interested in him.
    VERY true.

    Popular fiction also reinforces the idea that women need to play 'hard to get' and/or that if the guy just keeps stalking her she will eventually give in and he will get great sex.

  8. Top | #418
    The Doctor's Wife RavenSky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Osterman View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ruby sparks View Post
    I myself don't really know where the line is between harassment and non-harassment, but in practical terms I'd say one reasonable place is at the point someone says the actions are unwelcome, if they do. There might of course be reasons they don't, so it could still be deemed harassment, I suppose.
    I suspect that in the large majority of sexual harassments, the victim never vocalises their lack of consent or discomfort. Indeed, many of the instances coming to light recently have been situations where the victim felt they could not vocalise this for fear of unwelcome consequences to career or even wellbeing.

    This is why it is essential to gain active consent, and even more essential to not engage in sexual activities with anyone who may have a reason to not vocalise the withholding of consent (for example, an employee or subordinate or anyone over whom you have power).
    Or the victim is not even given a chance to voice an objection, or so shocked by what is happening that they are unsure how to respond (or how would be safe to respond).

    A year or so ago there were several contentious discussions about the creepy dud in the elevator... the point was repeatedly made that in those types of situations a woman will very often pretend to laugh off the sexual harassment to avoid angering the guy.

    Louis CK is a perfect example of this type of harasser. Several of his accusers said they assumed he was joking and tried to laugh it off... which he took as consent (it wasn't). The women expressed concern about his possible reaction if they did anything other than allow him to finish and then get out of there as quickly and calmly as possible.

    This is not to say that Louis CK WOULD have violently assaulted anyone... just that his victims has no way to know how he would react if they directly and bluntly objected to what he was doing. I suspect that the majority of women (and likely a large number of men) have experienced a situation wherein they have turned down an offer of a date, only to have the person get extremely nasty and insulting. It is all different degrees of the same phenomenon, and why a lot of women tread very very very carefully in these situations.

    It is also why men who are real men seek unambiguous affirmative consent in their relationships.

  9. Top | #419
    The Doctor's Wife RavenSky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Underseer View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RavenSky View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Underseer View Post
    Sorry, but I don't see how this "Me too" phenomenon is affecting Hollywood any more than any other segment of society, and I definitely don't see how Hollywood is somehow more sanctimonious than any Christian, Muslim, Republican, politician, etc.
    To the degree that the rich and famous (be that "Hollywood" or people like Trump) have gotten away with this type of shit more so than the average Joe, I think we are seeing a bit of a "take down" of the power people - which is great, imo.

    But the reality is that this sort of sexual harassment happens in every segment of society, from the construction worker cat calls to the jackass customer who pulled a Trump on me when I was in my 20's. It isn't even a matter of hypocrisy, imo... this behavior was just so ubiquitous that even the victims and the majority of people who have never engaged in it tended to keep quiet about it - never reporting it or speaking up about it.

    It is my hope that with the publicity of the "rich and famous" now suffering consequences for their casual sexual harassment, there will be a paradigm shift all the way through our society.
    I'm no lover of Hollywood. I think they're pretty fucking racist and perpetuate a lot of subconscious racism in the West, but I still don't see how the rich and powerful in Hollywood are necessarily any worse than rich and powerful people in any other sphere.
    I don't think they are any worse at all... just more public

  10. Top | #420
    The Doctor's Wife RavenSky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ruby sparks View Post
    You are interested in the fuzzy boundary between harassment and non-harassment. You are not really talking about what we might call 'clear cut' examples of either. I do think that's an interesting place to go and it is of course relevant to the topic.

    Yes, you are right, I have 'guessed consent' on many occasions and luckily I've been right almost all the time. I'm not saying I'm a saint. I've probably offended people lots of times without realising it, but hopefully not too often when it comes to sexual matters, because I generally keep my hands to myself and...whatever.
    You say that you generally keep your hands to yourself. So where you think you have "offended people lots of times without realising it" and how does that - in your opinion - constitute sexual harassment?

    I know other guys who are more forward. I know a guy whose strategy for getting laid on a night out was to be upfront about that being what he was looking for, take a lot of refusals, as many as it took, and waited for the one. I guess that that could be construed as harassment. Dunno.
    How do you think it might constitute sexual harassment? You say that he is upfront about his hopes when on dates (i.e. - not when he is at work or to random women he hasn't met before). You also say he would "take a lot of refusals, as many as it took, and waited for the one" - do you mean that he would repeatedly ask the same woman, or that he would be upfront each time he dated a different woman until he found a woman that shared his pov/preferences?

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