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Thread: Prehistoric Human Migrations

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    Contributor skepticalbip's Avatar
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    ^ ^ ^
    Is this a conflation of events or are you intentionally covering two different things? My understanding is that the Philistines and their battles are fairly well understood. However, the Late Bronze Age Collapse is blamed on some peoples who are largely unknown, only referred to as the "Sea Peoples". You could do a search for, "Bronze Age Sea Peoples" and see how little is known of this assumed group or movement or whatever it was.

    ETA:
    As usual, Wiki would offer only poor, surface only, information but a great deal of research into these peoples have been done by historians and archaeologists that can be found with a bit deeper search.
    Last edited by skepticalbip; 09-15-2019 at 08:47 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skepticalbip View Post
    ^ ^ ^
    Is this a conflation of events or are you intentionally covering two different things? My understanding is that the Philistines and their battles are fairly well understood. However, the Late Bronze Age Collapse is blamed on some peoples who are largely unknown, only referred to as the "Sea Peoples". You could do a search for, "Bronze Age Sea Peoples" and see how little is known of this assumed group or movement or whatever it was.

    ETA:
    As usual, Wiki would offer only poor, surface only, information but a great deal of research into these peoples have been done by historians and archaeologists that can be found with a bit deeper search.
    Have you any links to this "great deal of research"?

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    Contributor skepticalbip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4321lynx View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by skepticalbip View Post
    ^ ^ ^
    Is this a conflation of events or are you intentionally covering two different things? My understanding is that the Philistines and their battles are fairly well understood. However, the Late Bronze Age Collapse is blamed on some peoples who are largely unknown, only referred to as the "Sea Peoples". You could do a search for, "Bronze Age Sea Peoples" and see how little is known of this assumed group or movement or whatever it was.

    ETA:
    As usual, Wiki would offer only poor, surface only, information but a great deal of research into these peoples have been done by historians and archaeologists that can be found with a bit deeper search.
    Have you any links to this "great deal of research"?
    I have read several research articles and papers but I don't keep bookmarks of such things. You could do a search yourself and google scholar will give you several papers. As a starting point, here's what one search of papers came up with that you can read through, you can try different search terms:

    https://scholar.google.com/scholar?h...a+people&btnG=

    Of course, all the papers linked will not be about the Sea Peoples but you can cull out the ones that don't address the topic you want.

  4. Top | #74
    Member aupmanyav's Avatar
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    lpetrich, delayed reply. I somehow do not visit TFT very frequently. Potapovka, Abashevo, Fatyanovo and Afanasevo cultures lie much north of Sintashta, but they all, including Sintashta, were returning northward movements of IE people after the ice-age was over. Perhaps IE came to Yamanaya region during the ice-age from Siberia.

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    Administrator lpetrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aupmanyav View Post
    lpetrich, delayed reply. I somehow do not visit TFT very frequently. Potapovka, Abashevo, Fatyanovo and Afanasevo cultures lie much north of Sintashta, but they all, including Sintashta, were returning northward movements of IE people after the ice-age was over. Perhaps IE came to Yamanaya region during the ice-age from Siberia.
    Be careful about chronology. The last Ice Age ended at around 12,000 years ago, and that's how the beginning of the Holocene epoch, our one, is defined. Sintashta and similar are about halfway into the Holocene relative to the present.

    The Yamnaya culture did have predecessors, like Sredny Stog, in eastern Ukraine and nearby south Russia.

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    Member aupmanyav's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lpetrich View Post
    Be careful about chronology. The last Ice Age ended at around 12,000 years ago, and that's how the beginning of the Holocene epoch, our one, is defined. Sintashta and similar are about halfway into the Holocene relative to the present.

    The Yamnaya culture did have predecessors, like Sredny Stog, in eastern Ukraine and nearby south Russia.
    Seroglazovka culture near Astrakhan is 7,000 BCE and is considered IE. Where from did these people come?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seroglazovka_culture

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    Quote Originally Posted by aupmanyav View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by lpetrich View Post
    Be careful about chronology. The last Ice Age ended at around 12,000 years ago, and that's how the beginning of the Holocene epoch, our one, is defined. Sintashta and similar are about halfway into the Holocene relative to the present.

    The Yamnaya culture did have predecessors, like Sredny Stog, in eastern Ukraine and nearby south Russia.
    Seroglazovka culture near Astrakhan is 7,000 BCE and is considered IE. Where from did these people come?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seroglazovka_culture
    On what basis does anyone take the confidence to consider a culture of 9000 years ago either IE or not IE? What possible evidence, even incidental, could there be either way?

  8. Top | #78
    Member aupmanyav's Avatar
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    I suppose that it is followed by more distinctly IE culture without an apparent break. More information will only be with the experts.

  9. Top | #79
    Administrator lpetrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jokodo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by aupmanyav View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by lpetrich View Post
    Be careful about chronology. The last Ice Age ended at around 12,000 years ago, and that's how the beginning of the Holocene epoch, our one, is defined. Sintashta and similar are about halfway into the Holocene relative to the present.

    The Yamnaya culture did have predecessors, like Sredny Stog, in eastern Ukraine and nearby south Russia.
    Seroglazovka culture near Astrakhan is 7,000 BCE and is considered IE. Where from did these people come?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seroglazovka_culture
    On what basis does anyone take the confidence to consider a culture of 9000 years ago either IE or not IE? What possible evidence, even incidental, could there be either way?
    I'm sure that the Seroglazovka culture is pre-Indo-European. That is because of the reconstructed Proto-Indo-European vocabulary.

    One can reconstruct a sizable amount of PIE phonology (speech sounds) and grammar, though there are plenty of differences of opinion about them, and there was likely some dialect variation. One can also reconstruct a sizable amount of vocabulary, though the most successfully-recovered vocabulary is not very culturally informative. Having words for the Sun and the Moon and fire and water doesn't tell us very much.

    But one can make some cultural inferences. For instance, PIE had words for 1 to 10, and also 100, though I'm not sure about 1000. That means that the PIE speakers had a sizable amount of stuff that they had to count.

    They had several domestic animals: dog, cow, sheep, pig, horse. Dogs are late Paleolithic, cows, sheep, and pigs early Neolithic Middle East, and horses around 4000 BCE in the Eurasian steppe zone: eastern Ukraine - southern European Russia - Kazakhstan

    They also had wheels, axles, yokes, yoke poles, and a word for carry or transport, especially by vehicle, *wegh- It has descendants like English "wagon" and "way", Latin "via" (road, way) and "vehere" (to carry, transport), etc.

    Wheeled vehicles were invented somewhere around the eastern Mediterranean around 3500 BCE, and this technology spread rapidly, so we don't know for sure where this technology was invented.

  10. Top | #80
    Administrator lpetrich's Avatar
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    Joey Siraata Yracheta, MS Pharmaceutics on Twitter: "PC Plot of Europeans, Africans and Native Americans, with admixed Latino Groups https://t.co/rHr9Qnlqzs" / Twitter
    [PDF] Colloquium paper: genome-wide patterns of population structure and admixture among Hispanic/Latino populations. | Semantic Scholar
    8 Genome-wide Patterns of Population Structure and Admixture Among Hispanic/Latino Populations--Katarzyna Bryc, Christopher Velez, Tatiana Karafet, Andres Moreno-Estrada, Andy Reynolds, Adam Auton, Michael Hammer, Carlos D. Bustamante, and Harry Ostrer | In the Light of Evolution: Volume IV: The Human Condition | The National Academies Press

    These populations have three source populations: European, African, and Native American. The European one is mostly southwest Europe - the Iberian Peninsula - and the African one mostly West African. Reading off the diagrams,
    • American blacks are African / European with 40% - 100% African.
    • Mexicans are 20% - 80% NA, with only a little bit African
    • Dominican-Republic people are 20% - 80% African, with only a little bit NA
    • Puerto Ricans are 0% - 40% African and 20% NA
    • Colombians are 0% - 40% Africa and 0% - 20% NA
    • Ecuadorians are 20% - 80% NA with only a little bit African

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