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Thread: Theological Fine Tuning

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    Contributor Cheerful Charlie's Avatar
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    Theological Fine Tuning

    I have come up with a concept I call theological fine tuning. Theists tell us that the Universe is so fine tuned, there must have been a creative mind to account for that. It cannot have happened by chance.

    Now to theological fine tuning. How did the Universe become so fine tuned to allow for the existence of an intelligent, personal, omnipotent, omnibenevolent, omniscient God? A God that is simple, and has aseity, existence. How did the Universe become so ordered and fined tuned to allow that? If fine tuning is a sign of intelligent creation, it must be a sign somebody designed and created God. We then end up with an infinite chain of fine tuned Universes, meta-Universes and meta-meta-universes. These sort of things cannot come about from mere chance.
    Cheerful Charlie

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    Veteran Member Lion IRC's Avatar
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    Ummm...the universe doesn't "allow" for the existence of God.
    #horseB4cart

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    Veteran Member Tigers!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheerful Charlie View Post
    I have come up with a concept I call theological fine tuning. Theists tell us that the Universe is so fine tuned, there must have been a creative mind to account for that. It cannot have happened by chance.
    The last time I looked the Anthropic Principle was devised by scientists not theists.
    NOTE: No trees were killed in the sending of this message, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

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    Veteran Member Lion IRC's Avatar
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    Yep. Fine tuning is deliberately NOT about theology.

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    Senior Member remez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheerful Charlie View Post
    I have come up with a concept I call theological fine tuning. Theists tell us that the Universe is so fine tuned, there must have been a creative mind to account for that. It cannot have happened by chance.

    Now to theological fine tuning. How did the Universe become so fine tuned to allow for the existence of an intelligent, personal, omnipotent, omnibenevolent, omniscient God? A God that is simple, and has aseity, existence. How did the Universe become so ordered and fined tuned to allow that? If fine tuning is a sign of intelligent creation, it must be a sign somebody designed and created God. We then end up with an infinite chain of fine tuned Universes, meta-Universes and meta-meta-universes. These sort of things cannot come about from mere chance.
    So specifically.....
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheerful Charlie View Post
    How did the Universe become so fine tuned to allow for the existence of an intelligent, personal, omnipotent, omnibenevolent, omniscient God?
    The premise of your concept does not reflect an understanding of theism. It is the other way around. It’s the existence of an intelligent, personal, omnipotent, omnibenevolent, omniscient, ETERNAL God that best explains the existence of the finite, fine tuned universe.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheerful Charlie View Post
    If fine tuning is a sign of intelligent creation, it must be a sign somebody designed and created God.
    Again. If you are specifically addressing Christianity then you are missing the eternality of God and what that logically infers. God has no beginning therefore was not created, he has no cause.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheerful Charlie View Post
    We then end up with an infinite chain of fine tuned Universes, meta-Universes and meta-meta-universes. These sort of things cannot come about from mere chance.
    Precisely, chance does not best explain the observed fine tuning of the universe.
    There must have been an eternal intelligent designer.
    Last edited by remez; 04-29-2018 at 04:57 PM. Reason: clarification

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    Contributor ruby sparks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheerful Charlie View Post
    I have come up with a concept I call theological fine tuning. Theists tell us that the Universe is so fine tuned, there must have been a creative mind to account for that. It cannot have happened by chance.

    Now to theological fine tuning. How did the Universe become so fine tuned to allow for the existence of an intelligent, personal, omnipotent, omnibenevolent, omniscient God? A God that is simple, and has aseity, existence. How did the Universe become so ordered and fined tuned to allow that? If fine tuning is a sign of intelligent creation, it must be a sign somebody designed and created God. We then end up with an infinite chain of fine tuned Universes, meta-Universes and meta-meta-universes. These sort of things cannot come about from mere chance.
    One theory I have is that the same god was reincarnated an infinite number of times. The word 'eternal' in the texts was just shorthand for 'eternally self-replicating'. Papyrus was in short supply back then.

    Another theory is that god created himself using cosmic bootstrapping. They didn't have boots with laces in those days so if the texts had said bootstrapping, nobody would have understood.

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    Senior Member remez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ruby sparks View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheerful Charlie View Post
    I have come up with a concept I call theological fine tuning. Theists tell us that the Universe is so fine tuned, there must have been a creative mind to account for that. It cannot have happened by chance.

    Now to theological fine tuning. How did the Universe become so fine tuned to allow for the existence of an intelligent, personal, omnipotent, omnibenevolent, omniscient God? A God that is simple, and has aseity, existence. How did the Universe become so ordered and fined tuned to allow that? If fine tuning is a sign of intelligent creation, it must be a sign somebody designed and created God. We then end up with an infinite chain of fine tuned Universes, meta-Universes and meta-meta-universes. These sort of things cannot come about from mere chance.
    One theory I have is that the same god was reincarnated an infinite number of times. The word 'eternal' in the texts was just shorthand for 'eternally self-replicating'. Papyrus was in short supply back then.

    Another theory is that god created himself using cosmic bootstrapping. They didn't have boots with laces in those days so if the texts had said bootstrapping, nobody would have understood.
    first theory...
    Quote Originally Posted by ruby sparks View Post
    One theory I have is that the same god was reincarnated an infinite number of times
    The context was theism not pantheism.
    Quote Originally Posted by ruby sparks View Post
    The word 'eternal' in the texts was just shorthand for 'eternally self-replicating'. Papyrus was in short supply back then.
    Not. I get your humor but you miss the inference of eternal. The Christian God is eternal, thus has no beginning, he has no cause. That is what it means to be eternal. Thus your second theory fails as well.

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    the baby-eater
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    Quote Originally Posted by remez View Post
    God has no beginning therefore was not created, he has no cause.
    Claiming that God "has no beginning" is just an elaboration on the attempt to claim an exception from causality, and is a straightforward example of special pleading.

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    Senior Member remez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigfield View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by remez View Post
    God has no beginning therefore was not created, he has no cause.
    Claiming that God "has no beginning" is just an elaboration on the attempt to claim an exception from causality, and is a straightforward example of special pleading.
    Again the context was theism. The eternality of God predates the argument thus there is no special pleading. If something is eternal it has no cause.

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    Maybe its true "after all" as some believers have been saying - all thats hidden,gradually being revealed among many, (I got just few of the verses from) :that the two witnesses are "God and Christians"!

    By the look of the "Theists" on this thread at least, replying back in the "same manner" with fire (words) from their mouths.

    Jeremiah 5:14
    Wherefore thus saith the Lord God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.

    Acts 26:16
    I have appeared to you to appoint YOU as a SERVANT and as a WITNESS of what you have seen and will see of me.

    John 8:16-18 – 16 But if I do judge, my decisions are true, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. 17 In your own Law it is written that the testimony of TWO WITNESSES is true. 18 I am ONE who testifies for myself; my OTHER witness is the Father, who sent me.”
    Sorry being off topic ...back to the OP
    Last edited by Learner; 04-29-2018 at 06:23 PM.

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