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Thread: Why create the damned?

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    Member dockeen's Avatar
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    Why create the damned?

    I started a thread on this in the old forum, but it was not taken up. Being stupid, I will try again.

    Many Xtians would tell you that there are the elect, and everybody else. The everybody else are doomed to suffer eternal damnation.
    Now, here is my question. It the damned are here for a purpose, to serve an important role in the salvation of the elect, then why
    use "real" souls to fulfill the role of the damned creatures. Use avatars, agents, whatever you want to call them to play out the
    right role. Now, you no longer have the elect and the damned, but the elect and disposable props, that do not require eternal
    damnation?

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    I think 'NPCs' might be the term you are looking for here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-player_character

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    Elder Contributor DBT's Avatar
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    Doesn't the Bible say that the damned were, basically, created by God in order to 'make His power known' and to 'Glorify the 'elect,' the 'vessels of mercy?

    “Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,” - Romans 9:21-23

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    Member dockeen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Doesn't the Bible say that the damned were, basically, created by God in order to 'make His power known' and to 'Glorify the 'elect,' the 'vessels of mercy?

    “Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,” - Romans 9:21-23
    i.e. there is a role in the grand play. There is no reason that I can see why there has to be a "real" person in that role.

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    Deus Meumque Jus
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    Because hell was created as an instrument of fear to prop up the church and had absolutely no real logic behind it.

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    Member dockeen's Avatar
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    There seems to be a theme in those xtians that I can get to address this question that goes like this:

    You can only have real winners, if you have real losers.

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    Veteran Member James Brown's Avatar
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    Another oft-given answer is that Earth is a sort of training ground, intended to weed out those not truly committed to a life of ease in Paradise. If God pre-selected who's going to Heaven and gave only them a soul, then there's nothing to test. If you've made it this far and you have a soul--and nearly everyone feels that they do--then you're in. No more worrying about your eternal fate; thus, no more incentive to live a moral life.

    No answer that I've seen from any Christian can seem to improve on what would be the ideal solution with the least amount of suffering--God should just create the people he wants in Heaven with him to begin with, and forget all these intermediate stages that result in some percentage of living people suffering and dying. That's what an omnipotent and benevolent God would do.

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    Member dockeen's Avatar
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    Note that there is a definite difference between a training ground, and a testing ground. If life is a training ground, then it definitely seems that real souls playing the roles of the damned are unnecessary.

    If it is a testing ground, and god needs for the wheat to sort itself from the chaff, then that has very definitive implications for omniscience, and, arguably, omni-benevolence.

    ETA: If god does not know in advance who the winners and losers are, then god does not know for example whether all will be losers, and require eternal torment. Now, if this sort of "shot in the dark" creation does not bother one, well...

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    Elder Contributor Keith&Co.'s Avatar
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    Maybe GOD is omniscient, but Satan isn't, and God is forced to play all this out so that Satan will see God was right, 151,600 times per day.

    Oh. Wait. 'Forced.' That has implications for omnipotence, doesn't it?

    Nasty snarl....
    Satire. It's 2020, satire is dead. It's hide is tanned and flies as a flag overhead. We don't know whether to salute it or kneel, but either way it's going to piss SOMEBODY right the hell off.

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    Member dockeen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith&Co. View Post
    Maybe GOD is omniscient, but Satan isn't, and God is forced to play all this out so that Satan will see God was right, 151,600 times per day.

    Oh. Wait. 'Forced.' That has implications for omnipotence, doesn't it?

    Nasty snarl....
    Does make one wonder who is working for whom.

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