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Thread: You have to seek God with your heart!

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    Elder Contributor Underseer's Avatar
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    You have to seek God with your heart!

    Variations of this argument come up a lot when I discuss apologetics with Christians or Muslims. This is perhaps one of the most revealing arguments they make. In order to find their truth claims true, I have to "seek God with my heart" before examining the evidence.

    In other words, I have to want the conclusion to be true before I examine the evidence for whether or not the conclusion is true. It's an incredibly obvious appeal to emotion/begging the question (circular logic) fallacy such that I wonder none of them notice, but this argument is made to me with such regularity that I can only conclude that most of them don't understand what's wrong with this argument.

    Wanting things to be true doesn't make them true.

    Honestly, you should have figured that out as a toddler when cookies didn't magically appear in your hand.

    If you question the existence of electrons, I don't require you to want to believe electrons are real before showing you the evidence. I just show you the evidence.

    If you question the existence of elephants, I don't require you to want to believe elephants are real before showing you the evidence. I just show you the evidence.

    If you question the existence of the Germ Theory of Disease, I don't require you to want to believe that some microorganisms can communicate disease before showing you the evidence. I just show you the evidence.

    If you question whether or not the Sun rises in the East, I don't require you to want to believe that the Sun rises in the East before showing you the evidence. I just show you the evidence.

    If you question whether or not laws against murder exist, I don't require you to want to believe that the laws are real before showing you the evidence. I just show you the evidence.

    I don't need you to be in a particular state of mind for any of the above because the evidence is such that you will be compelled to believe whether you want those things to be true or not. That is the nature of truth. But if I want you to believe that Christianity or Islam are true, then I need you to be in a particular state of mind before you can look at the evidence. You need to want the conclusion to be true before you look at the evidence for whether or not the conclusion is true.

    If you need confirmation bias to convince someone that something is true, either it's not true or you have a very bad understanding of the supporting evidence.

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    Veteran Member phands's Avatar
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    Well said....and because of the utter lack of evidence, they also add Special Pleading to the list of Logical Fallacies.

    Anyway.....since the heart has no cognitive function, seeking god "with your heart" just means that there's no thought involved.
    “Light thinks it travels faster than anything but it is wrong. No matter how fast light travels, it finds the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it.” Terry Pratchett

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    Elder Contributor Keith&Co.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phands View Post
    Anyway.....since the heart has no cognitive function, seeking god "with your heart" just means that there's no thought involved.
    Oh, but there is.
    AFTER you believe, then there's a lot of mental capacity dedicated to rationalizing the belief despite the lack of evidence, or in the face of counter evidence.

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    Elder Contributor Underseer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phands View Post
    Well said....and because of the utter lack of evidence, they also add Special Pleading to the list of Logical Fallacies.

    Anyway.....since the heart has no cognitive function, seeking god "with your heart" just means that there's no thought involved.
    Oh, there is thought involved, just not thought that is conducive to ascertaining the truth. This is pretty much a recipe for leading someone into confirmation bias, a form of sloppy thinking humans are all too prone to indulge already.

    Or what Keith said.

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    Veteran Member phands's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith&Co. View Post
    Oh, but there is.
    AFTER you believe, then there's a lot of mental capacity dedicated to rationalizing the belief despite the lack of evidence, or in the face of counter evidence.
    Well said, sir! I concede the point - I should have said "no rational or coherent thought".
    “Light thinks it travels faster than anything but it is wrong. No matter how fast light travels, it finds the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it.” Terry Pratchett

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    Quote Originally Posted by Underseer View Post
    Variations of this argument come up a lot when I discuss apologetics with Christians or Muslims. This is perhaps one of the most revealing arguments they make. In order to find their truth claims true, I have to "seek God with my heart" before examining the evidence.

    In other words, I have to want the conclusion to be true before I examine the evidence for whether or not the conclusion is true. It's an incredibly obvious appeal to emotion/begging the question (circular logic) fallacy such that I wonder none of them notice, but this argument is made to me with such regularity that I can only conclude that most of them don't understand what's wrong with this argument.
    Hey... I'm sure there are people that want sci-fi gap filling : Higgs-field, multi -dimensions or dark-matter to be true

    Besides, I thought with my head first (rethinking the arguments I used against Christians) and then the heart followed so to speak. That's the problem with your argument in this regard.

    Wanting things to be true doesn't make them true.
    Theists agree (I know not all)

    Honestly, you should have figured that out as a toddler when cookies didn't magically appear in your hand.
    Let the toddlers be toddlers I say. They love being told stories and soon grow up.

    If you question the existence of electrons, I don't require you to want to believe electrons are real before showing you the evidence. I just show you the evidence.
    No questions from me here.

    If you question the existence of elephants, I don't require you to want to believe elephants are real before showing you the evidence. I just show you the evidence.

    If you question the existence of the Germ Theory of Disease, I don't require you to want to believe that some microorganisms can communicate disease before showing you the evidence. I just show you the evidence.

    If you question whether or not the Sun rises in the East, I don't require you to want to believe that the Sun rises in the East before showing you the evidence. I just show you the evidence.

    If you question whether or not laws against murder exist, I don't require you to want to believe that the laws are real before showing you the evidence. I just show you the evidence.
    I understand what you're trying to say but I'll just state the obvious from the heart. All the above is known in the bible.

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    Cyborg with a Tiara
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    I love how you bolded what exists in the bible here. disease exists, but noy germ theory. Sun rises, but not in the east (bible also claims it standa still in the sky, BTW.

    You say scientists exist who start with believing, and the scientific method exposes them. You know that. It’s not a successful practice of how to know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhea View Post
    I love how you bolded what exists in the bible here. disease exists, but noy germ theory. Sun rises, but not in the east (bible also claims it standa still in the sky, BTW.
    Germ theory , black holes or wi-fi , isn't mentioned. But you love ... suspicion, it seems (what ever it seems to you).

    You say scientists exist who start with believing, and the scientific method exposes them. You know that. It’s not a successful practice of how to know.
    It was regards to "Wanting to be true" i.e. filling the gaps with imaginative ideas, adding to the incomplete theoretical notions.
    Last edited by Learner; 07-10-2018 at 01:12 PM.

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    Veteran Member Lion IRC's Avatar
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    I can't think of any bible verse which says you have to seek Him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    I can't think of any bible verse which says you have to seek Him.
    True. I think the saying came about because no one has seen god for thousands of years, so they required some witty phrase to cover for it.

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