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Thread: Why is there Something Instead of God?

  1. Top | #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speakpigeon
    You can believe in God and accept you don't know that it exists, which would be a perfectly logical position to have.
    Not if you want to keep a reputation of intellectual honesty...

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    For the believer the point is that god is the universal answer to all questions. It simplifies life in a chaotic mental reality. Many atheists may miss the point that it is not simply a misplaced belief and faith.

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    Elder Contributor Underseer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speakpigeon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by T.G.G. Moogly View Post
    Those who think gods are real might ask, "Where did the Universe come from?" Or they might ask, "Why is there something instead of nothing?" So I thought to ask, rather rhetorically, the obvious question, "Why is there something instead of god?"

    For me the answer is simple. First of all, things like gods and ghosts aren't real. Secondly, somethingness is obviously the default setting of the universe. So the universe is here and gods are not. "Nothingness" or nothing is just semantics, a word like ghost, not something real.

    So I'm quite content to observe the universe, know it's real, and know that it doesn't need an invisible cosmic magician to poof it into being.
    Thank you for this powerful argument...

    Thank you for this powerful argument that definitely proves gods don't exist. That kind of logic should shut the mouth of all these idiots who believe in God. It's reassuring to have such fine example of rhetoric on our side. Just a few lines but they put a definitive end to literally thousands of years of educated debate. That has to be an impressive achievement. I wish Aristotle, Descartes and Einstein were still around just so their great worried minds experience the relief we all feel now.

    You should start to apply your powerful logic to all remaining conundrums humanity doesn't know how to solve. You know, just a few lines and poof, it's gone!

    I look forward to see how you keep enlightening our days and nights in these dark, Trumpian times. I hope for a debate between you two on Fox and see how you shut his big mouth for good.
    EB
    He may have worded it poorly, but that's pretty much a standard refutation of many "how else do you explain it?" argument from ignorance fallacies from theists. I'm sure you're already familiar with the infinite regression response, so why the snarky response?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by T.G.G. Moogly View Post
    Those who think gods are real might ask, "Where did the Universe come from?" Or they might ask, "Why is there something instead of nothing?" So I thought to ask, rather rhetorically, the obvious question, "Why is there something instead of god?"

    For me the answer is simple. First of all, things like gods and ghosts aren't real. Secondly, somethingness is obviously the default setting of the universe. So the universe is here and gods are not. "Nothingness" or nothing is just semantics, a word like ghost, not something real.

    So I'm quite content to observe the universe, know it's real, and know that it doesn't need an invisible cosmic magician to poof it into being.
    This is more or less the same argument I made here:

    https://talkfreethought.org/showthre...-and-you-don-t!

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    Veteran Member phands's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    Many atheists may miss the point that it is not simply a misplaced belief and faith.
    We atheists understand very well that it's not simple at all....it's a very tangled web of lies and deceit....but it's still completely misplaced.
    “Light thinks it travels faster than anything but it is wrong. No matter how fast light travels, it finds the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it.” Terry Pratchett

  5. Top | #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by T.G.G. Moogly View Post
    Those who think gods are real might ask, "Where did the Universe come from?" Or they might ask, "Why is there something instead of nothing?" So I thought to ask, rather rhetorically, the obvious question, "Why is there something instead of god?"

    For me the answer is simple. First of all, things like gods and ghosts aren't real. Secondly, somethingness is obviously the default setting of the universe. So the universe is here and gods are not. "Nothingness" or nothing is just semantics, a word like ghost, not something real.

    So I'm quite content to observe the universe, know it's real, and know that it doesn't need an invisible cosmic magician to poof it into being.
    This ...anti-nothingness, there is no nothing, nothing isn't never not real, approach reminds us
    ... No it doesn't, because it isn't something that was ever known in the first place, which is a prerequisite for being 'reminded' of things...
    that somewhere in amongst all of the possible worlds/universes/multiverses/megaverses there is one where God exists - where it's impossible for Him not to exist.
    IF (and it's a very big if) the idea you float here that all things - no matter how contradictory or impossible they might be - exist in some part of a hypothesised world/universe/multiverse/megaverse, then there are equally such worlds/universes/multiverses/megaverses where Harry Potter is a real student at the real Hogwarts, and where Clark Kent is a real newspaperman who really is an alien form Krypton with the ability to fly.

    If everything imaginable is possible, then none of it is special. Including your God, who is just one of a vast number of gods.

    It's not only unreasonable to believe in a may worlds/universes/multiverses/megaverses hypothesis in which even the impossible must occur somewhere; It's also pointless as a means to establish the value of any monotheistic belief system - If we accept this nonsense ad argumentum, then we must conclude that your God is a trivial footnote in reality.

  6. Top | #16
    Contributor Speakpigeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    somewhere in amongst all of the possible worlds/universes/multiverses/megaverses there is one where God exists - where it's impossible for Him not to exist.
    What kind of god would that be that would not exist everywhere?!

    One universe with a god among infinitely many without one. A god of small things?!
    EB

  7. Top | #17
    Contributor Speakpigeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juma View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Speakpigeon
    You can believe in God and accept you don't know that it exists, which would be a perfectly logical position to have.
    Not if you want to keep a reputation of intellectual honesty...
    ???

    What is it you don't understand about the word "belief"?!

    I believe the physical world exists but accept I don't know that's true at all.

    Intellectual honesty should lead you to recognise the limit of your beliefs.
    EB

  8. Top | #18
    Contributor Speakpigeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Underseer View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Speakpigeon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by T.G.G. Moogly View Post
    Those who think gods are real might ask, "Where did the Universe come from?" Or they might ask, "Why is there something instead of nothing?" So I thought to ask, rather rhetorically, the obvious question, "Why is there something instead of god?"

    For me the answer is simple. First of all, things like gods and ghosts aren't real. Secondly, somethingness is obviously the default setting of the universe. So the universe is here and gods are not. "Nothingness" or nothing is just semantics, a word like ghost, not something real.

    So I'm quite content to observe the universe, know it's real, and know that it doesn't need an invisible cosmic magician to poof it into being.
    Thank you for this powerful argument...

    Thank you for this powerful argument that definitely proves gods don't exist. That kind of logic should shut the mouth of all these idiots who believe in God. It's reassuring to have such fine example of rhetoric on our side. Just a few lines but they put a definitive end to literally thousands of years of educated debate. That has to be an impressive achievement. I wish Aristotle, Descartes and Einstein were still around just so their great worried minds experience the relief we all feel now.

    You should start to apply your powerful logic to all remaining conundrums humanity doesn't know how to solve. You know, just a few lines and poof, it's gone!

    I look forward to see how you keep enlightening our days and nights in these dark, Trumpian times. I hope for a debate between you two on Fox and see how you shut his big mouth for good.
    EB
    He may have worded it poorly, but that's pretty much a standard refutation of many "how else do you explain it?" argument from ignorance fallacies from theists. I'm sure you're already familiar with the infinite regression response, so why the snarky response?
    Sorry, I'm lost here. I take it you're not T.G.G. Moogly, right?

    I was apparently responding to T.G.G. Moogly and then, perhaps, you took that response to be addressed to you?

    And the "snarky" response is really all that T.G.G. Moogly's post deserved.
    EB

  9. Top | #19
    Contributor Speakpigeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bilby View Post
    ... No it doesn't, because it isn't something that was ever known in the first place, which is a prerequisite for being 'reminded' of things...
    that somewhere in amongst all of the possible worlds/universes/multiverses/megaverses there is one where God exists - where it's impossible for Him not to exist.
    IF (and it's a very big if) the idea you float here that all things - no matter how contradictory or impossible they might be - exist in some part of a hypothesised world/universe/multiverse/megaverse, then there are equally such worlds/universes/multiverses/megaverses where Harry Potter is a real student at the real Hogwarts, and where Clark Kent is a real newspaperman who really is an alien form Krypton with the ability to fly.

    If everything imaginable is possible, then none of it is special. Including your God, who is just one of a vast number of gods.

    It's not only unreasonable to believe in a may worlds/universes/multiverses/megaverses hypothesis in which even the impossible must occur somewhere; It's also pointless as a means to establish the value of any monotheistic belief system - If we accept this nonsense ad argumentum, then we must conclude that your God is a trivial footnote in reality.
    And yet, there's a universe where Lion IRC does exist, however incredible this is.

    God would be really less unlikely in my opinion.
    EB

  10. Top | #20
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    Knowledge:

    ''Why not say that knowledge is true belief?

    ''The standard answer is that to identify knowledge with true belief would be implausible because a belief that is true just because of luck does not qualify as knowledge. Beliefs that are lacking justification are false more often than not. However, on occasion, such beliefs happen to be true.

    The analysis of knowledge may be approached by asking the following question: What turns a true belief into knowledge? An uncontroversial answer to this question would be: the sort of thing that effectively prevents a belief from being true as a result of epistemic luck. Controversy begins as soon as this formula is turned into a substantive proposal. According to evidentialism, which endorses the JTB+ conception of knowledge, the combination of two things accomplishes this goal: evidentialist justification plus degettierization (a condition that prevents a true and justified belief from being "gettiered"). However, according to an alternative approach that has in the last three decades become increasingly popular, what stands in the way of epistemic luck, what turns a true belief into knowledge is the reliability of the cognitive process that produced the belief. Consider how we acquire knowledge of our physical environment: we do so through sense experience. Sense experiential processes are, at least under normal conditions, highly reliable. There is nothing accidental about the truth of the beliefs these processes produce. Thus beliefs produced by sense experience, if true, should qualify as instances of knowledge. An analogous point could be made for other reliable cognitive processes, such as introspection, memory, and rational intuition. We might, therefore, say that what turns true belief into knowledge is the reliability of our cognitive processes.''

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