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Thread: Dear Protestants: if you succeed in destroying separation of church and state, your religion won't be the one in charge

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    Elder Contributor Underseer's Avatar
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    Dear Protestants: if you succeed in destroying separation of church and state, your religion won't be the one in charge

    There are lots of reasons the founding fathers were keen on separation of church and state. One of those reasons is that Baptists founded a colony that became Rhode Island specifically to implement separation of church and state. You see, the Baptists who founded that colony were sick and tired of the way Puritans used their majorities in local governments to screw with all non-Puritan Christians.

    In some places, they even went so far as to jail people who prayed in the wrong way.

    The abuses of their majority in local governments was awful enough to cause a group of Baptists to start their own colony. Having been the recent victims of being a religious minority, they recognized that in their new colony, they would be the majority and would thus be at risk of abusing political power in all the same ways the Puritans abused their majorities against the Baptists.

    Thus, the Baptists wisely implemented separation of church and state to make certain that regardless of which denomination was in the majority, they would be unable to use the government to torment any of the other religions.

    This is why for a couple of centuries, Baptists consistently fought on the right side of separation of church and state issues.

    Then some time in the 60s or 70s, Evangelicals in general (not just Baptists) started radicalizing and becoming conservative extremists.

    Modern Evangelicals
    There is such a contrast between Baptists of the past and modern Baptists. The Baptists of colonial America came into a situation in which they could become the majority in a democratic system and feared that they would abuse power, and so implemented separation of church and state to make certain that no one would abuse power in that way.

    Modern Baptists came to realize that they might be able to leverage their majority within a majority to become the default official religion of America and then do to everyone else what the Puritans had once done to them.

    This was of course stupid from day one. Even looking at the demographics of the time they began switching sides on the issue of separation of church and state, Baptists were never a majority. They were the largest faction of Protestants, and Protestants outnumbered Catholics.

    So they figured that if they could create a theocracy, Protestants would become the official state religion and they could control the Protestant community by virtue of being the largest Protestant denomination. This was ridiculously bad strategy. Protestants would have remained in power only for as long as they could keep their coalition together, and pre-constitution America suggests that their coalition would not have lasted very long. The moment that coalition comes apart, the Catholics would become the plurality and hold the most political power in a democracy.

    The Baptists' power play in switching sides in the separation of church and state issue was a recipe for turning over America to the Vatican.

    But Now It's Even Dumber

    https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/prot...ry?id=54995663

    There has been much discussion around these forums about the growth of "nones" in recent decades, a category that includes atheists (but also theists not affiliated with any particular religion).

    When we look at the data, we see that the explosive growth of the nones is coming mostly at the expense of Protestants.



    If changes continue happening at this pace, then in another decade and a half, Catholics will outnumber all Protestants. Thus, even if Baptists could maintain an absolute coalition including every single Protestant denomination, Catholics would still have more power in the polls.

    Now, no matter what happens, if Baptists and the other Evangelicals succeed in destroying separation of church and state and creating a theocracy, that theocracy is all but guaranteed to be a Catholic theocracy.

    Everything about the Evangelical attacks on separation of church and state is—from a strategic point of view—an incredibly bad idea.

    The problem of course is that they are no longer able to reverse course. They have spent decades using a palette of lies to convince their followers that separation of church and state is an evil atheist conspiracy against Jesus such that even if Evangelical leadership suddenly reversed positions, most Evangelicals would continue working very hard to destroy separation of church and state, which as of now is the only thing standing between Evangelicals and Catholic domination.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Underseer View Post
    There are lots of reasons the founding fathers were keen on separation of church and state. One of those reasons is that Baptists founded a colony that became Rhode Island specifically to implement separation of church and state. You see, the Baptists who founded that colony were sick and tired of the way Puritans used their majorities in local governments to screw with all non-Puritan Christians.

    In some places, they even went so far as to jail people who prayed in the wrong way.

    The abuses of their majority in local governments was awful enough to cause a group of Baptists to start their own colony. Having been the recent victims of being a religious minority, they recognized that in their new colony, they would be the majority and would thus be at risk of abusing political power in all the same ways the Puritans abused their majorities against the Baptists.

    Thus, the Baptists wisely implemented separation of church and state to make certain that regardless of which denomination was in the majority, they would be unable to use the government to torment any of the other religions.

    This is why for a couple of centuries, Baptists consistently fought on the right side of separation of church and state issues.

    Then some time in the 60s or 70s, Evangelicals in general (not just Baptists) started radicalizing and becoming conservative extremists.

    Modern Evangelicals
    There is such a contrast between Baptists of the past and modern Baptists. The Baptists of colonial America came into a situation in which they could become the majority in a democratic system and feared that they would abuse power, and so implemented separation of church and state to make certain that no one would abuse power in that way.

    Modern Baptists came to realize that they might be able to leverage their majority within a majority to become the default official religion of America and then do to everyone else what the Puritans had once done to them.

    This was of course stupid from day one. Even looking at the demographics of the time they began switching sides on the issue of separation of church and state, Baptists were never a majority. They were the largest faction of Protestants, and Protestants outnumbered Catholics.

    So they figured that if they could create a theocracy, Protestants would become the official state religion and they could control the Protestant community by virtue of being the largest Protestant denomination. This was ridiculously bad strategy. Protestants would have remained in power only for as long as they could keep their coalition together, and pre-constitution America suggests that their coalition would not have lasted very long. The moment that coalition comes apart, the Catholics would become the plurality and hold the most political power in a democracy.

    The Baptists' power play in switching sides in the separation of church and state issue was a recipe for turning over America to the Vatican.

    But Now It's Even Dumber

    https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/prot...ry?id=54995663

    There has been much discussion around these forums about the growth of "nones" in recent decades, a category that includes atheists (but also theists not affiliated with any particular religion).

    When we look at the data, we see that the explosive growth of the nones is coming mostly at the expense of Protestants.



    If changes continue happening at this pace, then in another decade and a half, Catholics will outnumber all Protestants. Thus, even if Baptists could maintain an absolute coalition including every single Protestant denomination, Catholics would still have more power in the polls.

    Now, no matter what happens, if Baptists and the other Evangelicals succeed in destroying separation of church and state and creating a theocracy, that theocracy is all but guaranteed to be a Catholic theocracy.

    Everything about the Evangelical attacks on separation of church and state is—from a strategic point of view—an incredibly bad idea.

    The problem of course is that they are no longer able to reverse course. They have spent decades using a palette of lies to convince their followers that separation of church and state is an evil atheist conspiracy against Jesus such that even if Evangelical leadership suddenly reversed positions, most Evangelicals would continue working very hard to destroy separation of church and state, which as of now is the only thing standing between Evangelicals and Catholic domination.
    But. but but. That's what Jebus wants. And they got the guns. And non evangelicals won't fight.

    Eldarion Lathria

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    I think they would be happy having just the feds restricted. They can monopolize local districts and some entire states and make those their personal Talibanistans. Pretty sure that is their aim when wanting 'originalist' justices. They want judges so original that they will rule as if the Constitution has not changed since the 1st ten amendments.

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    Elder Contributor Underseer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scombrid View Post
    I think they would be happy having just the feds restricted. They can monopolize local districts and some entire states and make those their personal Talibanistans. Pretty sure that is their aim when wanting 'originalist' justices. They want judges so original that they will rule as if the Constitution has not changed since the 1st ten amendments.
    So they want to live under Catholic rule so that they can avoid the rule of law?

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    Veteran Member Sarpedon's Avatar
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    Just a question: Why do you think that a theocratic rule can't be by a minority?

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    Fair dinkum thinkum bilby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarpedon View Post
    Just a question: Why do you think that a theocratic rule can't be by a minority?
    Indeed. A minority Protestant ruling class can easily control power in a majority Catholic nation. Of course, this does come with some troubles - just ask the Irish.

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