Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 22

Thread: The Testimony of Nathan Son of Isaac Concerning Jesus of Nazareth

  1. Top | #11
    New Member DCHindley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    NE Ohio, USA
    Posts
    27
    Archived
    2,550
    Total Posts
    2,577
    Rep Power
    47
    Quote Originally Posted by Oecolampadius View Post
    Although this isn't a religious text per se, I nonetheless thought this the best place to discuss it. The Testimony of Nathan Son of Isaac Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, translated from the Greek by Ben Armhardt, has been dated to the eleventh century on the basis of paleography but appears to be a copy of an exemplar dating to the first century. The translator states that it could be a modern forgery (tests still have to be done on the manuscript), an eleventh century forgery, and most remotely, an eleventh century copy of a first century exemplar. Nathan purports to be a contemporary of Jesus, and he debunks the miracles and resurrection of Jesus. A friend at work showed me his copy and lent it to me, asking what I thought of it. I really don't know what to make of it; it appears to be written in a very academic format and well documented, but the possibility of its actually having first century roots seems far-fetched. Just for grins, though, I bought a copy and passed it on to an impressionable Christian acquaintance to see if it will shake his faith ;-)
    This is sounding more and more like a spoof of the Secret gospel of Mark in Morton Smith's find of a purported Letter of Clement of Alexandria to Theodore.

    Similarity #1: The Letter to Theodore was supposed to be a response by Clement of Alex. to a question posed by Theodore in a previous letter. In it, Theodore had reported that certain Gnostics in his area were saying that a secret version of Mark existed in which Jesus initiates a disciple into the "mystery of the kingdom of God" where there was sex involving "naked man (Jesus) with naked man (a young disciple)." Clement responded that this was not true. He admits that his church did have a secret version of Mark, and gave the except to show that in it there was noting about "naked man with naked man" (as in having sex).

    Similarity #2: Clement explained that the reason it was secret was because it had esoteric doctrines that need to be hidden as if by seven veils. It was Stephen Carlson who connected his talk of veiled doctrines *had* to be a rip off of the modern "Dance of the Seven Veils" by Salome before king Herod Philip, written by Oscar Wilde in 1891, "proving" that the whole thing was a modern forgery. Smith dated the hand of the copy of this letter to the 17th or 18th century, which would predate the play's publication and performances. My own sleuthing found examples of seven veils in use among medieval "magicians" as well as by Theosophists But there was a provocative dance scene in which Salome is naked under veils and sexually titillates king Herod Philip.

    Similarity #3: There are other similarities. Robert Eisler had proposed (The Messiah Jesus and John the Baptist, 1933) that the Slavonic paraphrase of Josephus' Judean War, with manuscripts going back to the 10th-11th century CE, had readings from an early Aramaic Capture of Jerusalem by Titus. This hypothesis was not supported by the modern edition of Slavonic Josephus by Leeming & Leeming, but why should that stop elements of this story being used in a parody? At one point, one biblical scholar proposed that the Slavonic Josephus was a medieval forgery.

    Similarity #4: I almost forgot about the Essene Gospel of Peace, supposedly transcribed by someone who saw a manuscript of this work, in Aramaic, in the "Secret Vatican Archives," and published in English with commentary by Edmond Bordeux Szekely. The Vatican denies that any such Aramaic mss is in their archives (which are not "secret" but "private" and as such are not publically circulated.) At any event, he had already established a New Age Community in Mexico and lived off book donations and gifts from rich members, but this book gave him a lot of publicity.

    This is a spoof, and may well have been written by Ehrman, who is a little kooky himself if you ask me. I believe he agrees with Carlson that Smith set up the whole Secret Mark thing as a hoax on modern scholars. That he got US Evangelicals to bite is amusing. Tee hee! "Woes will certainly come, but woe to the man through whom they come."

    DCH
    Last edited by DCHindley; 09-15-2018 at 05:23 PM. Reason: Forgot Szekeley!

  2. Top | #12
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Cascadia
    Posts
    1,128
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by DCHindley View Post

    This is a spoof, and may well have been written by Ehrman, who is a little kooky himself if you ask me. That he got US Evangelicals to bite is amusing. Tee hee! "Woes will certainly come, but woe to the man through whom they come."

    DCH
    Hmmm....Possibly. That he got Evangelicals to bite is no real surpise. His background, with his intellectual roots in Moody Bible Institute, prepares him well to speak to the Evangelicals.

  3. Top | #13
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    seattle
    Posts
    4,602
    Rep Power
    11
    wrong thread
    .
    Last edited by steve_bank; 09-15-2018 at 09:26 PM.

  4. Top | #14
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    seattle
    Posts
    4,602
    Rep Power
    11
    The Testimony Of Tidus Bogus son of Ignoramicus reveals all the truths of Jesus. It proves everything.

    I'll have it finished in a few weeks .Believable fiction is hard work.

  5. Top | #15
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    64
    Rep Power
    9
    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    The Testimony Of Tidus Bogus son of Ignoramicus
    as diligently transcribed by his faithful amanuensis Bigus Dickus . . .

  6. Top | #16
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    64
    Rep Power
    9
    Quote Originally Posted by DCHindley View Post
    This is a spoof, and may well have been written by Ehrman, who is a little kooky himself if you ask me.
    Furthermore, it is dedicated to New Testament scholar Bruce Metzger, who was Ehrman's most influential teacher.

  7. Top | #17
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    Chochenyo Territory, US
    Posts
    2,122
    Rep Power
    9
    Ah, the trials of the modern internet atheist apologist; accept it as genuine, because it contradicts Christianity, or reject it, because it would provide additional proof of Jesus' existence? Sore decisions...

  8. Top | #18
    Zen Hedonist Jobar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    1,097
    Archived
    9,525
    Total Posts
    10,622
    Rep Power
    68
    Er- Poli, I trust you're aware that Ehrman himself is an historicist; his book Did Jesus Exist? concludes that he did exist as an individual man. (Unlike G.A. Wells' older work by the same title, which concludes he didn't.)

    If it is a spoof by Ehrman, I am quite curious what his point is.

  9. Top | #19
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    Chochenyo Territory, US
    Posts
    2,122
    Rep Power
    9
    Yes, it was just a joke.

    I quite like Ehrman, met him briefly some several years ago while attending a panel on which he was a guest. Very shrewd, well-read scholar. I have a hard time believing that he would perpetuate such a hoax, though I suppose it must be someone well-informed. If one thing is to be learned from past Scriptural hoaxes, it is that sometimes the hoaxer IS who you would least expect. I have trouble imagining his motivations though. I never thought Ehrman bore any special enmity toward the "miracle gospel" itself, only the way it and its canonical antecedents get interpreted in the present.
    Last edited by Politesse; 09-22-2018 at 09:20 PM.

  10. Top | #20
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    16,345
    Archived
    42,293
    Total Posts
    58,638
    Rep Power
    85
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Ah, the trials of the modern internet atheist apologist; accept it as genuine, because it contradicts Christianity, or reject it, because it would provide additional proof of Jesus' existence? Sore decisions...
    Well, it doesn't need to be a decision. We can take whichever position is more useful in any given discussion. The end goal of luring the faithful away from salvation and have them join us in being tortured for eternity in the pits of Hell is worth any means we employ to reach it.

    That's our secret motivation which we hide behind the lies of "searching for the truth" or "honest questioning" or whatever bullshit we come up with that day, so don't tell anyone that we've admitted to it.

Similar Threads

  1. Isaac Asimov's Foundation series on TV?
    By lpetrich in forum Media & Culture Gallery
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 09-26-2018, 12:52 AM
  2. Fusion GPS Testimony Released.
    By Cheerful Charlie in forum Political Discussions
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 01-10-2018, 12:45 AM
  3. Replies: 28
    Last Post: 11-18-2017, 12:18 AM
  4. What's one vote, a personal testimony.
    By Bronzeage in forum Political Discussions
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 03-04-2016, 01:14 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •