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Thread: Noah and the flood

  1. Top | #31
    Veteran Member Lion IRC's Avatar
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    I don't claim a population of a handful of individuals populated the different parts of the world in a matter of a few hundred years and I don't think the bible says so either.

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    Veteran Member Sarpedon's Avatar
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    So how long did it take?

    Before you said you didn't know, and didn't have an opinion.

    Now you say it was more than a matter of a few hundred years. So it seems you know something, and do have an opinion.

  3. Top | #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    I don't claim a population of a handful of individuals populated the different parts of the world in a matter of a few hundred years and I don't think the bible says so either.
    So what are you saying? You have had the opportunity to explain your position several times that I know of and you have always dodged the question. How old is our planet, and how long has it been inhabited by humans and other living organisms? Do you really believe in the Biblical flood, and if yes, how do you explain away the complete lack of evidence for this claim? Why won't you answer these questions?

    Science tells us that modern humans have been around for about 200,000 years. Our ancestors have left a record of their existence and their evolving brains in cave paintings dating back tens of thousands of years, and more recently, through the written word starting about 10,000 years ago. There are records of human civilization spread out across the globe, from China and India to the New World that go back to that period. How come none of these people ever noticed that the planet had been covered by nearly 30,000 feet of water? And how did these civilizations all simultaneously get wiped out and then recover immediately and continue on as if nothing had happened, cultures and languages still intact? The Egyptians were building pyramids and magnificent temples for their kings and their gods 4,000 to 5,000 years ago, just hundreds of years after the great flood. Where did these people come from? Why is there no evidence of a flood of this gargantuan magnitude in the geological record? How did the handful of humans and pairs of animals that were saved from the flood survive and propagate out across the planet, and why do these extreme bottlenecks not show up in any of their genomes?

    The only rational answer is that the story of the Biblical flood is not true. And so this takes us back to the Bible and its writings; how do you place any credibility in its claims of a supernatural creator god when so many of its important claims are so obviously wrong? How much do you have to twist the lens and distort the facts to try to make the Biblical claims fit reality? How much do you have to distort the lens to justify to yourself that the god described in the Bible loves its creation, when it is apparently willing to curse its own children and all their descendants to disease and death, and commit planet-wide genocide by drowning pretty much every living thing on the planet in a fit of rage? Just because some people were misbehaving. Is this god worthy of your adoration?

    We humans may be imperfect but most of us show more kindness to our pets and even wild animals than your god does to humans. And you come in here frequently to lecture us on the morality of abortions, when you worship a god that exterminates all life on the planet at one stroke, and will torture you for eternity if you don't accept his "friend invite", or did not get its invite because you were born in the wrong place or at the wrong time. How fucked up is that?

  4. Top | #34
    Veteran Member Lion IRC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarpedon View Post
    So how long did it take?

    Before you said you didn't know, and didn't have an opinion.
    That's right. That's still my position.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarpedon View Post
    Now you say it was more than a matter of a few hundred years. So it seems you know something, and do have an opinion.
    What part of "I don't claim..." are you struggling to comprehend?

  5. Top | #35
    Veteran Member Sarpedon's Avatar
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    Denying a claim can be said to be equivalent to making a claim. Since you vehemently objecting to the idea that it was only a few centuries, you imply that it was longer. Now are you going back to saying it could have been only a few centuries, or it could have been longer? You know quite well that it would have taken longer than a few centuries. Any reasonable person could conclude that. Your behavior is entirely consistent. You know the flood is mythological, and that it therefore didn't happen at any particular time, it is just a story, that happened 'once upon a time.' But you refuse to admit it. Taking a lawyer's attitude towards facts, neither confirming nor denying might keep you from being pinned down to a position, but does nothing to conceal the intent behind it.

    I still maintain that asking 'when' is always a fair question. I consider claiming that an event happened 'without having an opinion' as to when is fundamentally dishonest. If it happened, it happened at a particular time. This is not an irrelevant detail, like what color Noah's smock was. When talking about an event, the when is almost as important as the what.

  6. Top | #36
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    Let the believers have their tale. Let them embrace it. In essence, it's unassailable. When a story has so many elements of magic, fantasy, and legend, it really can't be dissected and made rational. 600 year old man...collecting all the species...food and board...didn't the people "left behind" and so evil that even their infants deserved a drowning death -- didn't any of those folks have boats and fishing lines? Sheesh. None of those objections matter to the inerrantists. If someone reads that and considers that it's historic, fine -- no discussion will bridge the gap between that someone and those of us who read it as an old tale. This is like the Shroud, isn't it?

  7. Top | #37
    Veteran Member Sarpedon's Avatar
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    If they would stop trying to force their myth into the schools, and financing their myth-fraud parks with taxpayer money, I would heartily agree with your proposal.

  8. Top | #38
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    Yasss. Good point. But it's still impossible to apply logic to Ark yarns. It's like rainfall hitting the back of a duck. But you're right about the church/state craziness. That's why I support the ffrf legal team.

  9. Top | #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarpedon View Post
    So how long did it take?

    Before you said you didn't know, and didn't have an opinion.
    That's right. That's still my position.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarpedon View Post
    Now you say it was more than a matter of a few hundred years. So it seems you know something, and do have an opinion.
    What part of "I don't claim..." are you struggling to comprehend?
    If you don't know anything about anything, why are you making claims like this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    Noah’s family (all heterosexuals BTW) spread out and went their separate ways continuing on to live God’s blessing to be fruitful and populate the Earth. And as descendants of Adam, they likely shared his skin pigmentation.

    This initial skin pigmentation would be a useful starting point for subsequent variation in skin colour as Ham, Shem and Japheths descendents spread out around the world living in different climates.
    How do you know any of this? And how do you justify claims like this when the evidence tells us there was no Biblical flood?

  10. Top | #40
    Veteran Member Sarpedon's Avatar
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    Yup, he knows that Noah's family were heterosexuals, but he doesn't know when they lived!

    I can't think of anyone I know of like that. I can think of plenty of people I know when they lived, but not their orientation.

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