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Thread: Video essay about Columbus, bad but not pure evil?

  1. Top | #91
    Veteran Member skepticalbip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by skepticalbip View Post


    Hey, I could go with that. But then since Columbus day was created to honor Italian-Americans, the unknown cartographer would need to be Italian.
    If we need a heroic Italian cartographer who did his own math and knew how to reason out a logical argument, Amerigo Vespucci comes to mind as an obvious candidate. As a plus, I don't think he was ever accused of any serious crimes.
    Sounds silly to me. Any historical figure can be accused of 'serious crimes' if the detractors wants to dig deeply enough. Even St. Patrick can be accused of the 'serious crime' of driving Irish snakes into extinction if someone is determined enough to demean him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Don2 (Don1 Revised) View Post
    There is a big statue of Eriksson in Iceland.
    And supposedly, he had some run-in with the Mandan Indians, killing some. Just goes to show that no fucking "white man" merits recognition for anything impressive they may have done.

  3. Top | #93
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skepticalbip View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by skepticalbip View Post


    Hey, I could go with that. But then since Columbus day was created to honor Italian-Americans, the unknown cartographer would need to be Italian.
    If we need a heroic Italian cartographer who did his own math and knew how to reason out a logical argument, Amerigo Vespucci comes to mind as an obvious candidate. As a plus, I don't think he was ever accused of any serious crimes.
    Sounds silly to me. Any historical figure can be accused of 'serious crimes' if the detractors wants to dig deeply enough. Even St. Patrick can be accused of the 'serious crime' of driving Irish snakes into extinction if someone is determined enough to demean him.
    I hope you're fucking joking. Mythology and multiple primary sources written by credible first-hand witnesses including the accused are not even remotely the same thing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by skepticalbip View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Don2 (Don1 Revised) View Post
    There is a big statue of Eriksson in Iceland.
    Just goes to show that no fucking "white man" merits recognition for anything impressive they may have done.
    And yet, no one has actually said anything of the sort. Possibly because the rest of us aren't racists. Go figure.

  4. Top | #94
    Veteran Member skepticalbip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by skepticalbip View Post

    Sounds silly to me. Any historical figure can be accused of 'serious crimes' if the detractors wants to dig deeply enough. Even St. Patrick can be accused of the 'serious crime' of driving Irish snakes into extinction if someone is determined enough to demean him.
    I hope you're fucking joking. Mythology and multiple primary sources written by credible first-hand witnesses including the accused are not even remotely the same thing.
    Thus showing that you don't have a clue as to why a person is noted as significant in history. It certainly isn't because they were angels, personally admirable, or even good people. It is because of their accomplishments. Columbus opened the new world to Europe, that is a notable accomplishment whether you like it or not. FDR could be labeled as 'evil" because he saw to it that nuclear weapons development was funded that ended up causing the horrible death of a hell of a lot of Japanese and the problems of the cold war (where even more people died). But the accomplishment that FDR is noted for in history was his remaking of the U.S. culture.
    Last edited by skepticalbip; 04-11-2019 at 03:39 AM.

  5. Top | #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by skepticalbip View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by skepticalbip View Post

    Sounds silly to me. Any historical figure can be accused of 'serious crimes' if the detractors wants to dig deeply enough. Even St. Patrick can be accused of the 'serious crime' of driving Irish snakes into extinction if someone is determined enough to demean him.
    I hope you're fucking joking. Mythology and multiple primary sources written by credible first-hand witnesses including the accused are not even remotely the same thing.
    Thus showing that you don't have a clue as to why a person is noted as significant in history. It certainly isn't because they were angels, personally admirable, or even good people. It is because of their accomplishments. Columbus opened the new world to Europe, that is a notable accomplishment whether you like it or not. FDR could be labeled as 'evil" because he saw to it that nuclear weapons development was funded that ended up causing the horrible death of a hell of a lot of Japanese and the problems of the cold war (where even more people died). But the accomplishment that FDR is noted for in history was his remaking of the U.S. culture.
    That pretty much sums it up. Caesar was a ruthless son of a bitch as was all the Romans of his day. . Yet his military history is still studied today. He made advance in structured military organization and structured battlefield tactics.

  6. Top | #96
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skepticalbip View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by skepticalbip View Post

    Sounds silly to me. Any historical figure can be accused of 'serious crimes' if the detractors wants to dig deeply enough. Even St. Patrick can be accused of the 'serious crime' of driving Irish snakes into extinction if someone is determined enough to demean him.
    I hope you're fucking joking. Mythology and multiple primary sources written by credible first-hand witnesses including the accused are not even remotely the same thing.
    Thus showing that you don't have a clue as to why a person is noted as significant in history. It certainly isn't because they were angels, personally admirable, or even good people. It is because of their accomplishments. Columbus opened the new world to Europe, that is a notable accomplishment whether you like it or not. FDR could be labeled as 'evil" because he saw to it that nuclear weapons development was funded that ended up causing the horrible death of a hell of a lot of Japanese and the problems of the cold war (where even more people died). But the accomplishment that FDR is noted for in history was his remaking of the U.S. culture.
    I'm not sure how you got the idea that I don't consider Columbus to be a significant figure in history...

    I wouldn't approve of a federal holiday honoring Julius Caesar either.

    Yes, I know he was Italian also. And "white". Whatever, I still wouldn't want Caesar Day.

  7. Top | #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by skepticalbip View Post
    Thus showing that you don't have a clue as to why a person is noted as significant in history. It certainly isn't because they were angels, personally admirable, or even good people. It is because of their accomplishments. Columbus opened the new world to Europe, that is a notable accomplishment whether you like it or not. FDR could be labeled as 'evil" because he saw to it that nuclear weapons development was funded that ended up causing the horrible death of a hell of a lot of Japanese and the problems of the cold war (where even more people died). But the accomplishment that FDR is noted for in history was his remaking of the U.S. culture.
    I'm not sure how you got the idea that I don't consider Columbus to be a significant figure in history...

    I wouldn't approve of a federal holiday honoring Julius Caesar either.

    Yes, I know he was Italian also. And "white". Whatever, I still wouldn't want Caesar Day.
    I'm sure that the world's population will change how they determine and approve who is a notable person since you think different considerations should be taken into account. I can see Abraham Lincoln statues being torn down across the country since he was directly responsible for the deaths of over half a million Americans

  8. Top | #98
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skepticalbip View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by skepticalbip View Post
    Thus showing that you don't have a clue as to why a person is noted as significant in history. It certainly isn't because they were angels, personally admirable, or even good people. It is because of their accomplishments. Columbus opened the new world to Europe, that is a notable accomplishment whether you like it or not. FDR could be labeled as 'evil" because he saw to it that nuclear weapons development was funded that ended up causing the horrible death of a hell of a lot of Japanese and the problems of the cold war (where even more people died). But the accomplishment that FDR is noted for in history was his remaking of the U.S. culture.
    I'm not sure how you got the idea that I don't consider Columbus to be a significant figure in history...

    I wouldn't approve of a federal holiday honoring Julius Caesar either.

    Yes, I know he was Italian also. And "white". Whatever, I still wouldn't want Caesar Day.
    I'm sure that the world's population will change how they determine and approve who is a notable person since you think different considerations should be taken into account. I can see Abraham Lincoln statues being torn down across the country since he was directly responsible for the deaths of over half a million Americans
    The whole thing you're enraged about is that public opinion has changed toward Columbus himself. If you're cool with the idea that perspectives change, why are you so upset about this particular change?

    And again, neither I nor anyone has ever suggested that Columbus is not notable. Recognition and worship are not synonyms. It's the holiday that's the problem, not name recognition.

  9. Top | #99
    Veteran Member skepticalbip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by skepticalbip View Post
    I'm sure that the world's population will change how they determine and approve who is a notable person since you think different considerations should be taken into account. I can see Abraham Lincoln statues being torn down across the country since he was directly responsible for the deaths of over half a million Americans
    The whole thing you're enraged about is that public opinion has changed toward Columbus himself. If you're cool with the idea that perspectives change, why are you so upset about this particular change?
    Enraged? Another strawman? (and a way to evade addressing that Abe Lincoln was directly responsible for so many deaths of Americans?) Pointing out the asinity of judging someone from another time and culture by your personal particular morals in your current culture is not being enraged. Most likely in another hundred years your current moral code and culture will be seen as awful by their standards. Certainly in another two hundred years.
    And again, neither I nor anyone has ever suggested that Columbus is not notable. Recognition and worship are not synonyms.
    Another strawman. I have seen no one 'worship' Columbus. All I have see is recognition of his accomplishment.

  10. Top | #100
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skepticalbip View Post
    Enraged? Another strawman? (and a way to evade addressing that Abe Lincoln was directly responsible for so many deaths of Americans?) Pointing out the asinity of judging someone from another time and culture by your personal particular morals in your current culture is not being enraged. Most likely in another hundred years your current moral code and culture will be seen as awful by their standards. Certainly in another two hundred years.
    And again, neither I nor anyone has ever suggested that Columbus is not notable. Recognition and worship are not synonyms.
    Another strawman. I have seen no one 'worship' Columbus. All I have see is recognition of his accomplishment.
    Declaring a holy day in someone's honor & getting uoset when their flaws are remarked on = worship.

    Yes, Abraham Lincoln was controversial. That's why we shot him to death after the war.

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