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Thread: Video essay about Columbus, bad but not pure evil?

  1. Top | #101
    Contributor skepticalbip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by skepticalbip View Post
    Enraged? Another strawman? (and a way to evade addressing that Abe Lincoln was directly responsible for so many deaths of Americans?) Pointing out the asinity of judging someone from another time and culture by your personal particular morals in your current culture is not being enraged. Most likely in another hundred years your current moral code and culture will be seen as awful by their standards. Certainly in another two hundred years.
    And again, neither I nor anyone has ever suggested that Columbus is not notable. Recognition and worship are not synonyms.
    Another strawman. I have seen no one 'worship' Columbus. All I have see is recognition of his accomplishment.
    Declaring a holy day in someone's honor & getting uoset when their flaws are remarked on = worship.

    Yes, Abraham Lincoln was controversial. That's why we shot him to death after the war.
    Just shit.... Semantic games seems to be your recognition that your rants are based on pure bull shit. Yes holiday is a modern word usage originally derived from the old "holy day" but that isn't what it means today. Just as the word 'awful' is a new usage for the old usage of the word. It now means terrible but the old meaning is 'full of awe'.

  2. Top | #102
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    I know I said this before, but why don't we have a peace day? All these glorifications of people who ought not be glorified...and war. I mean, we've got Independence Day which essentially turns into military worship day, Veteran's Day same thing, Memorial Day which is exactly the same as Veteran's Day....instead of Columbus Day, let's have Enlightenment Day and instead of Veteran's Day, let's have Peace Day. For Memorial Day, let's not just glorify military as people who "gave us our freedom" but also some other people who fought for freedom, marched peacefully or fought hard as activists but also gave up their lives. Why do things have to be the way they are?

  3. Top | #103
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    Lincoln was and is controversial. He fought against Native Americans as part of the Illinoi militia. He thought blacks would never achieve parity with whites.

    The Emancipation Proclamation was more a war tactic to cause tumble in the south and recruit blacks for the army.

    He waited far too long to replace McClellan. Lincoln badly needed success and the war was not going well. Grant had no compunction with a scorched Earth slash and burn policy to deprive the Confederates of food, inclosing civilians. Sherman's march to the sea.


    In WWII General Curtis Lemay led the air attack on Japan. Fire bombing was used. Casualties far in excess of the atomic bombs. Rather than be inncinerated quickly people slowly cooked to death. He himself said if the war had gone the other way he would have been prosecuted for war crimes.

    The well known fire bombing of Dresden in Germanys. From survivor accounts about as close to hell on Earth as it gets.

    Pick an historical figure and you will never find black and white morality. I read Gandhi's biography. He had his own idiosyncrasies.
    Last edited by steve_bank; 04-11-2019 at 09:38 PM.

  4. Top | #104
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    Lincoln was and is controversial. He fought against Native Americans as part of the Illinoi militia. He thought blacks would never achieve parity with whites.

    The Emancipation Proclamation was more a war tactic to cause tumble in the south and recruit blacks for the army.

    He waited far too long to replace McClellan. Lincoln badly needed success and the war was not going well. Grant had no compunction with a scorched Earth slash and burn policy to deprive the Confederates of food, inclosing civilians. Sherman's march to the sea.


    In WWII General Curtis Lemay led the air attack on Japan. Fire bombing was used. Casualties far in excess of the atomic bombs. Rather than be inncinerated quickly people slowly cooked to death. He himself said if the war had gone the other way he would have been prosecuted for war crimes.

    The well known fire bombing of Dresden in Germanys. From survivor accounts about as close to hell on Earth as it gets.

    Pick an historical figure and you will never find black and white morality. I read Gandhi's biography. He had his own idiosyncrasies.
    So maybe lionizing some individuals AS perfected icons is not such a good idea, eh? Maybe it it is foolish to get upset when historical figures are criticized?

  5. Top | #105
    Contributor skepticalbip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don2 (Don1 Revised) View Post
    I know I said this before, but why don't we have a peace day? All these glorifications of people who ought not be glorified...and war. I mean, we've got Independence Day which essentially turns into military worship day, Veteran's Day same thing, Memorial Day which is exactly the same as Veteran's Day....instead of Columbus Day, let's have Enlightenment Day and instead of Veteran's Day, let's have Peace Day. For Memorial Day, let's not just glorify military as people who "gave us our freedom" but also some other people who fought for freedom, marched peacefully or fought hard as activists but also gave up their lives. Why do things have to be the way they are?
    There is quite a mix of national holidays. You must have slept through the kind you are advocating.

    For recognized federal holidays there is:
    .New years day
    . Martin Luther King Day
    .Labor Day
    .Thanksgiving Day
    .Christmas Day

    Then there are a hell of a lot of declared holidays that cover almost any interest anyone could be interested in.
    April fools day
    Valentines day
    mothers day
    fathers day
    etc. etc.
    April is National Humor Month and for a list of declared weeks and days in April try this link:
    http://www.holidayinsights.com/moreholidays/april.htm

  6. Top | #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    Lincoln was and is controversial. He fought against Native Americans as part of the Illinoi militia. He thought blacks would never achieve parity with whites.

    The Emancipation Proclamation was more a war tactic to cause tumble in the south and recruit blacks for the army.

    He waited far too long to replace McClellan. Lincoln badly needed success and the war was not going well. Grant had no compunction with a scorched Earth slash and burn policy to deprive the Confederates of food, inclosing civilians. Sherman's march to the sea.


    In WWII General Curtis Lemay led the air attack on Japan. Fire bombing was used. Casualties far in excess of the atomic bombs. Rather than be inncinerated quickly people slowly cooked to death. He himself said if the war had gone the other way he would have been prosecuted for war crimes.

    The well known fire bombing of Dresden in Germanys. From survivor accounts about as close to hell on Earth as it gets.

    Pick an historical figure and you will never find black and white morality. I read Gandhi's biography. He had his own idiosyncrasies.
    So maybe lionizing some individuals AS perfected icons is not such a good idea, eh? Maybe it it is foolish to get upset when historical figures are criticized?
    You appear to lack a balanced view of history and humanity. I deals by definition are to be strived for but are never attainable by mere mortal humans.

    If you think you live by a black and white moral code then you have never ben really tested by reality.

  7. Top | #107
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    I agree on the military worship. We have gone from showing periodic appreciation for the military and veterans to a past form of a military culture.

    War is glory for the USA. Our soldiers are now warriors.

  8. Top | #108
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    Lincoln was and is controversial. He fought against Native Americans as part of the Illinoi militia. He thought blacks would never achieve parity with whites.

    The Emancipation Proclamation was more a war tactic to cause tumble in the south and recruit blacks for the army.

    He waited far too long to replace McClellan. Lincoln badly needed success and the war was not going well. Grant had no compunction with a scorched Earth slash and burn policy to deprive the Confederates of food, inclosing civilians. Sherman's march to the sea.


    In WWII General Curtis Lemay led the air attack on Japan. Fire bombing was used. Casualties far in excess of the atomic bombs. Rather than be inncinerated quickly people slowly cooked to death. He himself said if the war had gone the other way he would have been prosecuted for war crimes.

    The well known fire bombing of Dresden in Germanys. From survivor accounts about as close to hell on Earth as it gets.

    Pick an historical figure and you will never find black and white morality. I read Gandhi's biography. He had his own idiosyncrasies.
    So maybe lionizing some individuals AS perfected icons is not such a good idea, eh? Maybe it it is foolish to get upset when historical figures are criticized?
    You appear to lack a balanced view of history and humanity. I deals by definition are to be strived for but are never attainable by mere mortal humans.

    If you think you live by a black and white moral code then you have never ben really tested by reality.
    I don't have anything remotely like a dualistic morality.

  9. Top | #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by skepticalbip View Post
    Do you really believe (as your link indicated) that the diameter of the Earth was never measured and refined over the sixteen or so centuries from that first determination? The experiment is so fucking simple and the results so critical to know that I find it difficult to believe that people concerned with accuracy wouldn't do their own measurement.
    What does that have to do with Columbus getting it wrong?

    I'm not disputing the astronomers of antiquity, I'm pointing where Columbus got it wrong.

  10. Top | #110
    Contributor skepticalbip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horatio Parker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by skepticalbip View Post
    Do you really believe (as your link indicated) that the diameter of the Earth was never measured and refined over the sixteen or so centuries from that first determination? The experiment is so fucking simple and the results so critical to know that I find it difficult to believe that people concerned with accuracy wouldn't do their own measurement.
    What does that have to do with Columbus getting it wrong?

    I'm not disputing the astronomers of antiquity, I'm pointing where Columbus got it wrong.
    As I said, Columbus did not 'calculate' the distance to Japan. He was a navigator. He actually had communication with the cartographers that he relied on and was assured that the maps were reliable. It was the cartographers that got it wrong because they could only make an 'educated' guess at longitude. The map makers thought Asia was a hell of a lot wider than it is. Although, if you feel so compelled, you can say that Columbus was wrong to trust the best cartographers of the time. But then still today navigators trust their maps to be correct - and occasionally those maps will have errors. I know that I have hit sand bars that my chart shows not to exit.
    Last edited by skepticalbip; 04-18-2019 at 02:35 AM.

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