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Thread: Video essay about Columbus, bad but not pure evil?

  1. Top | #21
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldarion Lathria View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bronzeage View Post
    Taken in context, Columbus was probably like any other man, only more so.

    Also taken in context, the greatest mistake the Native Americans made was letting any European return to Europe alive.
    So genocide is good if white not people of no color subhuman cave beasts are the victim? Columbus brought multiculturism and diversity to the Americas. Aren't they good things?

    Eldarion Lathria
    You define fighting off an invasion force from another country "genocide"? Did words stop having meanings or something? Bronzeage did not suggest or recommend that the Taino cross the ocean sea and massacre the population of Spain in reprisal.

  2. Top | #22
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    The major cultures in the Americas over time were well versed in conquest, genocide, and brutality to each other. Some were peaceful some were imperial so to speak.

  3. Top | #23
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    The major cultures in the Americas over time were well versed in conquest, genocide, and brutality to each other. Some were peaceful some were imperial so to speak.
    A few nations were imperial "so to speak", so it's okay to murder everyone with the same skin color as them, regardless of their personal level of complicity in this alleged enterprise? Is that your argument? Can I rape and murder you, since I happen to know that many of the "major cultures of Europe" were "well versed in conquest, genocide and brutality"?

  4. Top | #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    The major cultures in the Americas over time were well versed in conquest, genocide, and brutality to each other. Some were peaceful some were imperial so to speak.
    A few nations were imperial "so to speak", so it's okay to murder everyone with the same skin color as them, regardless of their personal level of complicity in this alleged enterprise? Is that your argument? Can I rape and murder you, since I happen to know that many of the "major cultures of Europe" were "well versed in conquest, genocide and brutality"?
    A predictable knee jerk progressive type response I expected. In said noting of justifying in moral hindsight the abuse of Native Americans. The Europeans dominated due to superior weapons and technology.

    South American cultures did not seem to be interested in science in general. The wheel was never fully exploited. The Incas were fantastic civil engineers. They surveyed mountain roads that would rival modern surveying equipment.

    An objective view looks at the entire context. North American plains natives fought battles over location

  5. Top | #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    The major cultures in the Americas over time were well versed in conquest, genocide, and brutality to each other. Some were peaceful some were imperial so to speak.
    A few nations were imperial "so to speak", so it's okay to murder everyone with the same skin color as them, regardless of their personal level of complicity in this alleged enterprise? Is that your argument? Can I rape and murder you, since I happen to know that many of the "major cultures of Europe" were "well versed in conquest, genocide and brutality"?
    How on earth do you get that from what steve_bank actually wrote? I would like to know the thought process behind that leap.

  6. Top | #26
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    The major cultures in the Americas over time were well versed in conquest, genocide, and brutality to each other. Some were peaceful some were imperial so to speak.
    A few nations were imperial "so to speak", so it's okay to murder everyone with the same skin color as them, regardless of their personal level of complicity in this alleged enterprise? Is that your argument? Can I rape and murder you, since I happen to know that many of the "major cultures of Europe" were "well versed in conquest, genocide and brutality"?
    How on earth do you get that from what steve_bank actually wrote? I would like to know the thought process behind that leap.
    I'm baffled as to what other message could be contrived. If it isn't an attempt to draw a false equivalencies and thus excuse genocide, what the hell is it? To a non-racist, how are wars on the Great Plains even relevant to a conversation about Hispaniola?

  7. Top | #27
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    Progressive's are baffled often by the concept of unbiased objectivity.

    Any criticism of non white groups is considered racists. It can be revisionist history. Only Europeans did things we consider immoral today.

    From a regional history I read the native chief for whom Seattle is named made his tribal reputation by single handedly intercepting a rival tribe's raiding party.

  8. Top | #28
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    Progressive's are baffled often by the concept of unbiased objectivity.

    Any criticism of non white groups is considered racists. It can be revisionist history. Only Europeans did things we consider immoral today.

    From a regional history I read the native chief for whom Seattle is named made his tribal reputation by single handedly intercepting a rival tribe's raiding party.
    From your perspective, why was your contribution useful or relevant to the proceeding discussion, which was about questioning whether Columbus' acts were excuseable?

    I am by no means incapable of criticizing "non-whites", a category that I indeed entirely reject as valid, especially in a discussion of the 15th century; the whole idea of "whiteness" was not invented until two centuries later.

  9. Top | #29
    Contributor skepticalbip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    Progressive's are baffled often by the concept of unbiased objectivity.

    Any criticism of non white groups is considered racists. It can be revisionist history. Only Europeans did things we consider immoral today.

    From a regional history I read the native chief for whom Seattle is named made his tribal reputation by single handedly intercepting a rival tribe's raiding party.
    From your perspective, why was your contribution useful or relevant to the proceeding discussion, which was about questioning whether Columbus' acts were excuseable?

    I am by no means incapable of criticizing "non-whites", a category that I indeed entirely reject as valid, especially in a discussion of the 15th century; the whole idea of "whiteness" was not invented until two centuries later.
    Apparently Steve is trying to make the point that modern PC culture selects a specific group or individual to demonize, implying that what they did was extraordinarily evil when compared to the innocence of other groups of peoples. Peoples around the world did and do things that should be condemned given today's morality. It does not mean that evil of one culture should be excused because some other culture does evil. It is quite proper to condemn the actions of the Spanish conquistadors just as it is quite proper to condemn the actions of the Maya for raiding other cities for captives then sacrificing them by cutting their hears out while they are still alive as sacrifices to their gods.

    In our current PC culture, it is a "good" to condemn Europeans today because, in the past, some Europeans engaged in despicable actions. But any condemnation today of past despicable actions by cultures that are not European is called "racism".
    Last edited by skepticalbip; 04-03-2019 at 08:23 PM.

  10. Top | #30
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skepticalbip View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    Progressive's are baffled often by the concept of unbiased objectivity.

    Any criticism of non white groups is considered racists. It can be revisionist history. Only Europeans did things we consider immoral today.

    From a regional history I read the native chief for whom Seattle is named made his tribal reputation by single handedly intercepting a rival tribe's raiding party.
    From your perspective, why was your contribution useful or relevant to the proceeding discussion, which was about questioning whether Columbus' acts were excuseable?

    I am by no means incapable of criticizing "non-whites", a category that I indeed entirely reject as valid, especially in a discussion of the 15th century; the whole idea of "whiteness" was not invented until two centuries later.
    Apparently Steve is trying to make the point that modern PC culture selects a specific group or individual to demonize, implying that what they did was extraordinarily evil when compared to the innocence of other groups of peoples. Peoples around the world did and do things that should be condemned given today's morality. It does not mean that evil of one culture should be excused because some other culture does evil. It is quite proper to condemn the actions of the Spanish conquistadors just as it is quite proper to condemn the actions of the Maya for raiding other cities for captives then sacrificing them by cutting their hears out while they are still alive as sacrifices to their gods.

    In our current PC culture, it is a "good" to condemn Europeans today because, in the past, some Europeans engaged in despicable actions. But any condemnation today of past despicable actions by cultures that are not European is called "racism".
    Who said that cultures of any sort were beyond criticism? No one in this thread. This thread is about whether Columbus actions were excusable. Bringing up the war career of Chief Seattle is as relevant as complaining about Napoleon in a thread about the conquest of India by the Mughals.

    I don't see anyone here excessively praising the Taino nations, or indeed having any idea who they are or were. They certainly weren't pacifists, but that shouldn't have any bearing on whether Columbus' actions were right or wrong. By his own accounts, he was killing people for money, political conquest, and sexual access. Not to liberate the Caribs from Taino attacks. And definitely not to save people from the depredations of the 19th Sioux, however that might work. Those peoples are connected only by Steve's belief that they are of the same "race".

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