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Thread: Time zones and the creation story

  1. Top | #21
    Fair dinkum thinkum bilby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Nut View Post
    cool! Interesting to know. Someone get Neil deGrasse Tyson up to speed too! Them scientists sure LOOK like they just make shit up.
    All humans make shit up sometimes.

    Science is the only methodology that allows people to know things instead - but scientists don't only (or even usually) apply science to everything that they believe.

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    so when a scientist says global warming is real and man made, we shouldn't necessarily believe they know what they are talking about.. they may not be "applying science to everything that they believe". So, science is just what scientists believe or not.. like religious studies are to Theologians. same same.

  3. Top | #23
    Fair dinkum thinkum bilby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Nut View Post
    so when a scientist says global warming is real and man made, we shouldn't necessarily believe they know what they are talking about.. they may not be "applying science to everything that they believe". So, science is just what scientists believe or not.. like religious studies are to Theologians. same same.
    Nope. Science isn't a population, it's a methodology.

    Scientists are people who are more likely than others to apply that methodology. But scientists themselves will tell you (indeed, it's the motto of the Royal Society) - Take nobody's word for it.

    If you want to apply science to a question, then that's rule number one.

    Having faith in science is insane. Check it out for yourself.

    If they don't tell you how to do that, they're not doing science.

    If you find a theologian who takes pains to explain (in detail) how to prove them wrong, let me know. (Not holding my breath).

    Nobody is asking you to believe in global warming (OK - lots of people are; but no scientists). The scientists are telling you it's happening, and how they know, and how to check it out for yourself.

    If you don't bother to check it out for yourself, then you are not entitled to any opinion at all on the matter.

    (Hint - checking it out for yourself doesn't include listening to others or trying to decide who to believe - it involves actually doing the experiments yourself).

  4. Top | #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by bilby View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Nut View Post
    so when a scientist says global warming is real and man made, we shouldn't necessarily believe they know what they are talking about.. they may not be "applying science to everything that they believe". So, science is just what scientists believe or not.. like religious studies are to Theologians. same same.
    Nope. Science isn't a population, it's a methodology.

    Scientists are people who are more likely than others to apply that methodology. But scientists themselves will tell you (indeed, it's the motto of the Royal Society) - Take nobody's word for it.

    If you want to apply science to a question, then that's rule number one.

    Having faith in science is insane. Check it out for yourself.

    If they don't tell you how to do that, they're not doing science.

    If you find a theologian who takes pains to explain (in detail) how to prove them wrong, let me know. (Not holding my breath).

    Nobody is asking you to believe in global warming (OK - lots of people are; but no scientists). The scientists are telling you it's happening, and how they know, and how to check it out for yourself.

    If you don't bother to check it out for yourself, then you are not entitled to any opinion at all on the matter.

    (Hint - checking it out for yourself doesn't include listening to others or trying to decide who to believe - it involves actually doing the experiments yourself).
    Cool... What climate related experiments have you personally performed that has confirmed the claims you have heard? I think this is very interesting stuff.
    In Church, when the pastor says that Book XX says YY, I can go look it up for myself and verify... but I trust the source of information so I don't feel I have to. Too bad you can't really trust scientific sources and have to always recheck them, though. This is why people don't believe what they don't want to believe.. because it is too hard to confirm... so emotions are all we got.

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    Veteran Member phands's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Nut View Post
    so when a scientist says global warming is real and man made, we shouldn't necessarily believe they know what they are talking about.. they may not be "applying science to everything that they believe". So, science is just what scientists believe or not.. like religious studies are to Theologians. same same.
    Abject twaddle.

    Science studies reality and tries to explain it with hypotheses, theories and experiments. If those experiments refute the hypothesis or theory, it is eventually modified or discarded. That "eventually" can be a long time, and some people never give up on bad theories, like anti-vaxxers, flat earthers or creationists or homeopaths and chiropractic quacks..

    Theology pretends to study the absurd and ties itself in over-complex knots to justify and "prove" the obviously non-existent. When their ideas are demonstrably wrong, they tend to double down on the impossible, and swathe it in deeper layers of lunacy, and they never give up on the basic wrongness of starting out to justify an already presumed conclusion.

    Science is useful...theology is pretentious garbage.
    “Light thinks it travels faster than anything but it is wrong. No matter how fast light travels, it finds the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it.” Terry Pratchett

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    Quote Originally Posted by phands View Post

    Science is useful...theology is pretentious garbage.
    both are useful... except when science is wrong. Even "wrong" theology can be useful. Maybe it really isn't a good idea to literally "turn the other cheek" while you are being pummeled by a bad actor... but the notion of being forgiving is generally a good one.
    Which part of the theory that opioids serve as good treatment for lower back pain is anything but completely wrong and only harmful?

  7. Top | #27
    Die dulci freure Max Rockatansky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by excreationist View Post
    In Genesis 1, the days involve an "evening" and "morning" but only some parts of the earth would be in that time of day - areas on the opposite side would have the opposite time of day. So which part of earth is it in respect to? The garden of Eden? But dry land only appeared on the third day, so initially the focus of the evening/morning would have been under water!

    But if the earth is flat and the whole earth is the same time of day then there is an absolute "morning" or "evening"... maybe that's what the writer had in mind.
    Those stories were told around campfires for thousands of years before Moses (allegedly) wrote them down. I wouldn't take them literally. Most cultures have creation stories and, oddly enough, flood stories.
    “An organism at war with itself is doomed.” -- Carl Sagan

  8. Top | #28
    Contributor skepticalbip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Max Rockatansky View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by excreationist View Post
    In Genesis 1, the days involve an "evening" and "morning" but only some parts of the earth would be in that time of day - areas on the opposite side would have the opposite time of day. So which part of earth is it in respect to? The garden of Eden? But dry land only appeared on the third day, so initially the focus of the evening/morning would have been under water!

    But if the earth is flat and the whole earth is the same time of day then there is an absolute "morning" or "evening"... maybe that's what the writer had in mind.
    Those stories were told around campfires for thousands of years before Moses (allegedly) wrote them down. I wouldn't take them literally. Most cultures have creation stories and, oddly enough, flood stories.
    Flood stories being found in almost all cultures isn't really that surprising. At the end of the last ice age when all the glaciers melted there were massive floods everywhere. Rivers would have overflowed their banks as the melt water rushed downstream. Also sea levels rose by about 100 meters so any settlements near oceans would have been inundated.

  9. Top | #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by skepticalbip View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Max Rockatansky View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by excreationist View Post
    In Genesis 1, the days involve an "evening" and "morning" but only some parts of the earth would be in that time of day - areas on the opposite side would have the opposite time of day. So which part of earth is it in respect to? The garden of Eden? But dry land only appeared on the third day, so initially the focus of the evening/morning would have been under water!

    But if the earth is flat and the whole earth is the same time of day then there is an absolute "morning" or "evening"... maybe that's what the writer had in mind.
    Those stories were told around campfires for thousands of years before Moses (allegedly) wrote them down. I wouldn't take them literally. Most cultures have creation stories and, oddly enough, flood stories.
    Flood stories being found in almost all cultures isn't really that surprising. At the end of the last ice age when all the glaciers melted there were massive floods everywhere. Rivers would have overflowed their banks as the melt water rushed downstream. Also sea levels rose by about 100 meters so any settlements near oceans would have been inundated.
    ... but you don't believe in a global flood, nuh uh... flooding happened everywhere and was written about... but call it a global flood and panties get a twistin.

  10. Top | #30
    Contributor skepticalbip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Nut View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by skepticalbip View Post
    Flood stories being found in almost all cultures isn't really that surprising. At the end of the last ice age when all the glaciers melted there were massive floods everywhere. Rivers would have overflowed their banks as the melt water rushed downstream. Also sea levels rose by about 100 meters so any settlements near oceans would have been inundated.
    ... but you don't believe in a global flood, nuh uh... flooding happened everywhere and was written about... but call it a global flood and panties get a twistin.
    There were massive floods. Around the world there are different stories and legends by different cultures and religions attributing and describing the cause of the floods each experienced. Is there any reason anyone would accept the Biblical description and explanation and ignore all the other stories of other cultures?

    There were floods and different cultures incorporated stories about them into their religions and lore.

    A fairly recent finding of an ancient underwater city off Dwarka, India is a find that may provide evidence of the basis of the Hindu flood stories.

    ETA:
    Are you saying that early cultures did not make up stories to explain the reasons for unusual events? Are you saying that there wasn't flooding at the end of the last ice age?
    Last edited by skepticalbip; 11-01-2018 at 07:33 PM.

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