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Thread: Time zones and the creation story

  1. Top | #71
    Veteran Member James Brown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Nut View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by James Brown View Post
    Maybe I'm confused. The placebo effect is well documented, sure. So if someone says, "I'm going to pray for good health in order to kick in the placebo effect," in what sense are we saying that prayer--in and of itself--is demonstrated to work?

    If I have a headache, and I take aspirin and say a prayer for healing, and if in an hour my headache is gone, is it accurate to say the prayer was effective?

    Studies_on_intercessory_prayer

    Meta-studies of the literature in the field have been performed showing evidence only for no effect or a potentially small effect. For instance, a 2006 meta analysis on 14 studies concluded that there is "no discernible effect" while a 2007 systemic review of intercessory prayer reported inconclusive results, noting that 7 of 17 studies had "small, but significant, effect sizes" but the review noted that the most methodologically rigorous studies failed to produce significant findings
    only if it is accurate to say that aspirin is placebo.
    In double-blind studies, aspirin is not a placebo.

  2. Top | #72
    Die dulci freure Max Rockatansky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Brown View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Nut View Post

    only if it is accurate to say that aspirin is placebo.
    In double-blind studies, aspirin is not a placebo.
    Agreed. Aspirin has been proved to be an effective medicine on its own. However, a person with a positive attitude is more likely to see the maximum effects of aspirin than a person who thinks it has no value, won't work and a strong belief they'll continue to be in pain.
    “An organism at war with itself is doomed.” -- Carl Sagan

  3. Top | #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Brown View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Nut View Post

    only if it is accurate to say that aspirin is placebo.
    In double-blind studies, aspirin is not a placebo.
    Then it would be most accurate to say that you don't know what cured the headache because you failed to isolate all of the variables.
    It would be accurate enough to ASSUME the headache was cured by the aspirin.

  4. Top | #74
    Elder Contributor Keith&Co.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Max Rockatansky View Post
    Those points aside, there are also the "miracle" recoveries. IMO, those are statistical anomalies; example: 1000 people have stage IV cancer, all have other's praying for them. One makes a full recovery while the other 999 are dead. A miracle of prayer? No.
    When Self Mutation was posting here, he maintained that cancer remission was just a term doctors used so they didn't have to give credit to God. Obviously, prayer to God was effective against cancer.
    When asked why only certain types of cancer could be cured by spontaneous miracle God remission, no matter how many people prated over the other types, he blamed, IIRC, the radiation from people's electronics.

  5. Top | #75
    Die dulci freure Max Rockatansky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith&Co. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Max Rockatansky View Post
    Those points aside, there are also the "miracle" recoveries. IMO, those are statistical anomalies; example: 1000 people have stage IV cancer, all have other's praying for them. One makes a full recovery while the other 999 are dead. A miracle of prayer? No.
    When Self Mutation was posting here, he maintained that cancer remission was just a term doctors used so they didn't have to give credit to God. Obviously, prayer to God was effective against cancer.
    When asked why only certain types of cancer could be cured by spontaneous miracle God remission, no matter how many people prated over the other types, he blamed, IIRC, the radiation from people's electronics.
    ROFL. Maybe it was the cellphones.
    “An organism at war with itself is doomed.” -- Carl Sagan

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    Elder Contributor Keith&Co.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Brown View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Nut View Post

    only if it is accurate to say that aspirin is placebo.
    In double-blind studies, aspirin is not a placebo.
    Wouldn't a double-blind study actually be testing a treatment AGAINST a placebo?

    If every drug was no more effective than prayer, then double-blind studies would never produce any results. None.
    Then Nut's claim that studies have proven prayer to be just as useful as sugar pills would merely be an unsupported anecdote.

  7. Top | #77
    Die dulci freure Max Rockatansky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith&Co. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by James Brown View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Nut View Post

    only if it is accurate to say that aspirin is placebo.
    In double-blind studies, aspirin is not a placebo.
    Wouldn't a double-blind study actually be testing a treatment AGAINST a placebo?

    If every drug was no more effective than prayer, then double-blind studies would never produce any results. None.
    Then Nut's claim that studies have proven prayer to be just as useful as sugar pills would merely be an unsupported anecdote.
    You two are in agreement and I agree with you.

    A double-blind study is standard methodology and is used to test many things including medication. The purpose is to prevent someone administering the medication from knowing who is getting the drug being tested and who is getting the placebo. There is a placebo effect, something to be ruled out when testing a new drug. To say prayer is as effective as a placebo recognizes this point and I believe both work for the same reason, just not as well as actual medication.
    “An organism at war with itself is doomed.” -- Carl Sagan

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