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Thread: Is Satan the Christian God of Knowledge?

  1. Top | #11
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    According to Milton he had plenty friends:

    But the sword
    Of Michaël from the armoury of God
    Was given him tempered so that neither keen
    Nor solid might resist that edge: it met
    The sword of Satan, with steep force to smite
    Descending, and in half cut sheer; nor stayed,

    But, with swift wheel reverse, deep entering, shared
    All his right side. Then Satan first knew pain,
    And writhed him to and fro convolved; so sore
    The griding sword with discontinuous wound
    Passed through him. But the ethereal substance closed,
    Not long divisible; and from the gash
    A stream of nectarous humour issuing flowed
    Sanguin, such as celestial Spirits may bleed,

    And all his armour stained, erewhile so bright,
    Forthwith, on all sides, to his aid was run
    By Angels many and strong, who interposed
    Defence, while others bore him on their shields

    Back to his chariot where it stood retired
    From off the files of war: there they him laid
    Gnashing for anguish, and despite, and shame

    To find himself not matchless, and his pride
    Humbled by such rebuke, so far beneath
    His confidence to equal God in power.
    Yet soon he healed; for Spirits, that live throughout
    Vital in every part—not, as frail Man,
    In entrails, heart or head, liver or reins—
    Cannot but by annihilating die;

    etc..etc..

  2. Top | #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Methinx View Post
    According to Milton he had plenty friends:
    Were they friends or were they minions? I don't think evil overlords really have too many friends.

  3. Top | #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    In orthodox Judaism, Satan is just an adversary, someone who plays the role of 'devils advocate' in order to fulfill the Will of God. Satan in the book of Job is given permission to torment Job only to the extent that is approved by God, Satan being a creation of God and an agent of God.
    That makes sense, more sense than seeing Satan as this crazy, evil incarnation that just goes around for the sake of peddling evil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Methinx View Post
    According to Milton he had plenty friends:
    Were they friends or were they minions? I don't think evil overlords really have too many friends.
    Some people don't think of Satan as evil, but as a heroic character.


    The Litany of Satan


    O you, the wisest and fairest of the Angels,
    God betrayed by destiny and deprived of praise,

    O Satan, take pity on my long misery!

    O Prince of Exile, you who have been wronged
    And who vanquished always rise up again more strong,

    O Satan, take pity on my long misery!

    You who know all, great king of hidden things,
    The familiar healer of human sufferings,

    O Satan, take pity on my long misery!

    You who teach through love the taste for Heaven
    To the cursed pariah, even to the leper,

    O Satan, take pity on my long misery!

    You who of Death, your mistress old and strong,
    Have begotten Hope, — a charming madcap!

    O Satan, take pity on my long misery!

    You who give the outlaw that calm and haughty look
    That damns the whole multitude around his scaffold.

    O Satan, take pity on my long misery!

    You who know in what nooks of the miserly earth
    A jealous God has hidden precious stones,

    O Satan, take pity on my long misery!

    You whose clear eye sees the deep arsenals
    Where the tribe of metals sleeps in its tomb,

    O Satan, take pity on my long misery!

    You whose broad hand conceals the precipice
    From the sleep-walker wandering on the building's ledge,

    O Satan, take pity on my long misery!

    You who soften magically the old bones
    Of belated drunkards trampled by the horses,

    O Satan, take pity on my long misery!

    You who to console frail mankind in its sufferings
    Taught us to mix sulphur and saltpeter,

    O Satan, take pity on my long misery!

    You who put your mark, O subtle accomplice,
    Upon the brow of Croesus, base and pitiless,

    O Satan, take pity on my long misery!

    You who put in the eyes and hearts of prostitutes
    The cult of sores and the love of rags and tatters,

    O Satan, take pity on my long misery!

    Staff of those in exile, lamp of the inventor,
    Confessor of the hanged and of conspirators,

    O Satan, take pity on my long misery!

    Adopted father of those whom in black rage
    — God the Father drove from the earthly paradise,

    O Satan, take pity on my long misery!

    Prayer

    Glory and praise to you, O Satan, in the heights
    Of Heaven where you reigned and in the depths
    Of Hell where vanquished you dream in silence!
    Grant that my soul may someday repose near to you
    Under the Tree of Knowledge, when, over your brow,
    Its branches will spread like a new Temple!

    - Charles Baudelaire (translation by William Aggeler)


    "The reason Milton wrote in fetters when he wrote of Angels & God, and at liberty when of Devils & Hell, is because he was a true Poet and of the Devil's party without knowing it." - William Blake


    Many critics thought that Milton (a devout Christian) made his Satan a far too noble character. In Paradise Lost, most of Satan's cohorts have great, rousing, and all-too rational speeches.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Methinx View Post
    According to Milton he had plenty friends:
    Were they friends or were they minions? I don't think evil overlords really have too many friends.
    Are you kidding, EVERYONE is the Evil Overlord's friend.

    Even the Hero is the EO's friend. As evidenced by the opening of the Posturing Speech when the hero finds that fourteen spotlights and four hundred guns are pointed at him and the villain says, "Nice to see you again, old friend."

    And he points to the guys behind the spotlights, the guns, and the laser pointers as "My friends and I have been waiting..."

    And during the speech, when he introduces the giant mutant supershark in the tank under the trapdoor, "My little friends want to play with you, like they did your (predecessor/boss/love interest)."

    Pointing out that this isn't exactly the definition of 'friend' just gets the rejoinder of "You're not the overlord of me!"
    Dad always worried that I played with Princess Barbie, and Ken, as a kid. But I never pretended I was the Princess, or the Knight.
    In my mind, I was always The Dragon...

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    Well, I suppose that's why one doesn't need to pay minions. They're just buddies helping you out.

    Thank you. I learned something today.

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    Incidentally, there is kind of a Christian God of knowledge, or at least a Goddess of Wisdom: Sophia. Usually treated as a manifestation or "person" of God, similar to an avatar in Hindu thought, rather than an independent entity, but she has distinct qualities and characteristics. A substantial portion of the book of Proverbs, and nearly all of the book of Wisdom in the Hebrew Scriptures are dedicated to hymns of praise to Sophia, such as this one:


    From Her I learned both what is secret and what is manifest,

    for Wisdom, the fashioner of all things, taught me.

    There is in her a spirit that is intelligent, holy,

    unique, manifold, subtle,

    mobile, clear, unpolluted,

    distinct, invulnerable, loving the good, keen,

    irresistible,
    beneficent, humane,

    steadfast, sure, free from anxiety,

    all-powerful, overseeing all,

    and penetrating through all spirits

    that are intelligent, pure, and altogether subtle.

    For Wisdom is more mobile than any motion;

    because of her pureness Sshe pervades and penetrates all things.

    For She is a breath of the power of God,

    and a pure emanation of the glory of the Almighty;

    therefore nothing defiled gains entrance into her.

    For She is a reflection of eternal light,

    a spotless mirror of the working of God,

    and an image of his goodness.

    Although She is but one, She can do all things,

    and while remaining in herself, She renews all things;

    in every generation She passes into holy souls

    and makes them friends of God, and prophets;

    for God loves nothing so much as the person who lives with Wisdom.

    She is more beautiful than the sun,

    and excels every constellation of the stars.

    Compared with the light She is found to be superior,

    for it is succeeded by the night,

    but against Wisdom evil does not prevail.


    I actually met her in person once, after a fashion; during the Gnostic Mass she possesses the body of the priest for a time.

  8. Top | #18
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    I see Satan as an ultimately heroic figure. He fights against the tyrant God knowing full well that he can not win. He convinces the humans to eat the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, and become a moral agent, instead of an obedient amoral slave to their creator. He symbolizes truth, freedom, agency, and the struggle against tyrany. He may be the greatest hero in all of fiction. The only bad thing about him is that the Christians declare him the bad guy.

    Yes, I'm literally playing devil's advocate. And I believe I'm right.

  9. Top | #19
    Shrunken Member WAB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post
    I see Satan as an ultimately heroic figure. He fights against the tyrant God knowing full well that he can not win. He convinces the humans to eat the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, and become a moral agent, instead of an obedient amoral slave to their creator. He symbolizes truth, freedom, agency, and the struggle against tyrany. He may be the greatest hero in all of fiction. The only bad thing about him is that the Christians declare him the bad guy.

    Yes, I'm literally playing devil's advocate. And I believe I'm right.
    The great essayist and critic William Hazlitt called Satan, "“the most heroic subject that ever was chosen for a poem”. (From the link to Norton I inserted above).
    If you want to get laid, go to college. If you want an education, go to a library. - Frank Zappa

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    Quote Originally Posted by T.G.G. Moogly View Post
    .....lands in gods magic garden, shares the gift of knowledge with our mythical parents,...
    It seems that the author of Genesis is saying that there was a talking snake - it talked not because it was possessed, but because "the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made".
    Also the serpent is punished: "Cursed are you above all livestock and all wild animals! You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life".

    Revelation says the "ancient serpent" is Satan but that doesn't prove that that is what the author of Genesis had in mind.

    Also 1 Timothy 2 talks about the woman being deceived but doesn't say by who - if it was Satan I thought the writer would mention that there because 1 Timothy 1:20 and 5:15 mention Satan.

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