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Thread: Einstein's block universe?

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    Senior Member excreationist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skepticalbip View Post
    Sorry but neither of those two posts was a response. This is a discussion board, don't you have an opinion or thought? I can google and find tons of other people's opinion in blogs and articles about almost any subject, but that is not a discussion.
    I am disagreeing with what you wrote like "...combining the block universe with religion pretty much destroys all the teachings of religion..." I thought other people's reasoning would be better than my own. Post #9 about time travel is disagreeing with DrZoidberg's "There's no way to, even hypothetically, go back and forward in time".
    Personally I find referring to good quality web articles to be very useful because they are often well thought out - better than I could easily come up with on my own. I have only a high school level of education in physics so my solo reasoning about it isn't of a very high standard compared to many people on these forums.
    BTW in discussions I've had on Facebook with creationists, I prefer them to find non-creationist articles on the internet to support their views rather than refer to nothing at all or pro-creationist articles.

    "....don't you have an opinion or thought?...."

    Well it often turns out that any opinions I have that go against mainstream science turn out to be flawed but I still like to explore those things anyway to get an understanding of things even if I'm not strongly supporting them.

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    That pain you are feeling on your butt, that is me kicking you tomorrow.

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    Senior Member excreationist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    That pain you are feeling on your butt, that is me kicking you tomorrow.
    Retrocasuality?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retrocausality

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    Contributor DBT's Avatar
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    The passing of time in a block time universe is an illusion. Time doesn't pass or flow, it is a dimension, the fourth dimension.

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    Contributor skepticalbip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by excreationist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by skepticalbip View Post
    Sorry but neither of those two posts was a response. This is a discussion board, don't you have an opinion or thought? I can google and find tons of other people's opinion in blogs and articles about almost any subject, but that is not a discussion.
    I am disagreeing with what you wrote like "...combining the block universe with religion pretty much destroys all the teachings of religion..."
    That's fine but you need to then argue why you disagree, not just post a link.

    I'll expand further on my reasoning as to why it would destroy the teaching of religion. Imagine god creating a block time universe. When creating one of the individuals to be part of that universe, he would create that individual's past, present, and future complete with all actions that individual thinks he is doing and place him in that universe. Religion promotes the idea that there are individual free will, morality, sin, etc. How could the ideas of religion possibly be correct since everything down to the minutest detail that ever was, is, and will be was fixed and immutable when created? Individuals have no choice since everything is fixed throughout space and time as created. Without the ability to make a choice of action and thought there can be no free will, morality, sin, etc. There could still be a creator god but the creation would be rather sterile and immutable.

    "....don't you have an opinion or thought?...."

    Well it often turns out that any opinions I have that go against mainstream science turn out to be flawed but I still like to explore those things anyway to get an understanding of things even if I'm not strongly supporting them.
    There is nothing wrong with that. That is the point of discussions. No one is always right and we discover our errors in understand by trying to defend those understandings and being shown and convinced where they are incorrect. Alternately, we sometimes learn more that better support our understanding. Both is how we learn and that is a good thing.

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    Senior Member excreationist's Avatar
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    This is a front cover article from New Scientist - Feb 14, 2018:
    "Quantum time machine: How the future can change what happens now - The idea that the future can influence the past may finally explain the inherent randomness of quantum theory and bring it in line with Einstein's space-time"
    https://www.newscientist.com/article...t-happens-now/

    Here is the full text:
    https://www.sott.net/article/377599-...m-time-machine

    It talks about the block universe.

    Quote Originally Posted by skepticalbip View Post
    ...I'll expand further on my reasoning as to why it would destroy the teaching of religion. Imagine god creating a block time universe. When creating one of the individuals to be part of that universe, he would create that individual's past, present, and future complete with all actions that individual thinks he is doing and place him in that universe. Religion promotes the idea that there are individual free will, morality, sin, etc. How could the ideas of religion possibly be correct since everything down to the minutest detail that ever was, is, and will be was fixed and immutable when created? Individuals have no choice since everything is fixed throughout space and time as created. Without the ability to make a choice of action and thought there can be no free will, morality, sin, etc. There could still be a creator god but the creation would be rather sterile and immutable.
    That article says "God plays sudoku" - so maybe "God" would fill in the initial conditions and places where he intervenes. Then physics (based on sudoku rules) would fill more things in, including physics involving people's choices.

    BTW does the hypothetical God know the future? In the predestination book I have it says God knows the future - doesn't that mean that people are deterministic and unable to change their mind from what God knows will happen?

  7. Top | #17
    Contributor skepticalbip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by excreationist View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by skepticalbip View Post
    ...I'll expand further on my reasoning as to why it would destroy the teaching of religion. Imagine god creating a block time universe. When creating one of the individuals to be part of that universe, he would create that individual's past, present, and future complete with all actions that individual thinks he is doing and place him in that universe. Religion promotes the idea that there are individual free will, morality, sin, etc. How could the ideas of religion possibly be correct since everything down to the minutest detail that ever was, is, and will be was fixed and immutable when created? Individuals have no choice since everything is fixed throughout space and time as created. Without the ability to make a choice of action and thought there can be no free will, morality, sin, etc. There could still be a creator god but the creation would be rather sterile and immutable.
    That article says "God plays sudoku" - so maybe "God" would fill in the initial conditions and places where he intervenes. Then physics (based on sudoku rules) would fill more things in, including physics involving people's choices.

    BTW does the hypothetical God know the future? In the predestination book I have it says God knows the future - doesn't that mean that people are deterministic and unable to change their mind from what God knows will happen?
    You seem to be mixing several different and mutually exclusive ideas about the nature of the universe. I don't see that a block time universe would be so much a matter that god knows the future as it would be that the past, present, and future are all created together so all exist simultaneously. It would be a fixed, unvarying universe and if there's a god then he would be at least a five dimensional critter so sees what we think of as past, present, and future as one fixed unchanging block.

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    Quantum Hot Dog Kharakov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by excreationist View Post
    This might be compatible with how people think God relates to the universe.

    What do people think of that idea?
    According to some perspectives God always has access to the whole, which can mean stuff like: God has multiple save points, or God has many worlds evolving at different rates (so one of the differences in the many worlds is the rate that time passes in different worlds).

    To riff on the many worlds interpretation: there could be a world (verse in the multiverse) that is now 10^-42 seconds after the big bang. Information could be inserted in this world that would change the evolution of the whole. There could be another world that is 10 minutes before I posted this message with a naked picture of me before the power went out. I'm hoping.


    So when God learns something new- a new way of dealing with things, then God can insert this and re-evolve the universe from a past point. Parts of the universe will stay the same, parts will not (depending on whether there is a universal information update or not- and where in the evolution of the universe the "new" information is acting).



    I don't know about a block universe- I think I have a block brain though.

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    Senior Member excreationist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skepticalbip View Post
    ....You seem to be mixing several different and mutually exclusive ideas about the nature of the universe. I don't see that a block time universe would be so much a matter that god knows the future as it would be that the past, present, and future are all created together so all exist simultaneously. It would be a fixed, unvarying universe and if there's a god then he would be at least a five dimensional critter so sees what we think of as past, present, and future as one fixed unchanging block.
    That New Scientist article I linked to talked about a block universe and talked about "God" filling it in like sudoku rather than filling it in in one step.

    Also could you answer this:
    "BTW does the hypothetical God know the future? In the predestination book I have it says God knows the future - doesn't that mean that people are deterministic and unable to change their mind from what God knows will happen?"

  10. Top | #20
    Contributor skepticalbip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by excreationist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by skepticalbip View Post
    ....You seem to be mixing several different and mutually exclusive ideas about the nature of the universe. I don't see that a block time universe would be so much a matter that god knows the future as it would be that the past, present, and future are all created together so all exist simultaneously. It would be a fixed, unvarying universe and if there's a god then he would be at least a five dimensional critter so sees what we think of as past, present, and future as one fixed unchanging block.
    That New Scientist article I linked to talked about a block universe and talked about "God" filling it in like sudoku rather than filling it in in one step.

    Also could you answer this:
    "BTW does the hypothetical God know the future? In the predestination book I have it says God knows the future - doesn't that mean that people are deterministic and unable to change their mind from what God knows will happen?"
    That is what I was attempting to answer in the post you quoted... repteated here:
    I don't see that a block time universe would be so much a matter that god knows the future as it would be that the past, present, and future are all created together so all exist simultaneously. It would be a fixed, unvarying universe and if there's a god then he would be at least a five dimensional critter so sees what we think of as past, present, and future as one fixed unchanging block.
    In effect I see it as god would know everything that has occured, is occurring, and will ever occur because it was all created together... it was all set, so since it was all set then nothing can change. This means predetermined to the smallest detail so humans can not change anything having no free will.

    This is a universe that I, personally, don't see as possible but it is what the universe would be if the current model of block time is assumed.

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