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Thread: Asia Bibi's blasphemy case in Pakistan

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    Asia Bibi's blasphemy case in Pakistan

    Dunno if anyone follows the Friendly Atheist blog over at Patheos, but they've been covering the Asia Bibi blasphemy case (or at least, I occasionally see posts from them on Twitter about this):

    https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/...lasphemy-case/

    In 2009, a Christian woman named Aasiya Noreen (a.k.a. Asia Bibi) got into a fight with Muslim co-workers over shared water — they said it was unclean because Noreen was Christian. During the fight, Bibi allegedly said she would not covert to Islam and that Muhammad was no prophet, a statement her co-workers took as an insult to their faith. It didn’t take long before her supposed act of blasphemy resulted in a death sentence from a Pakistani judge. That extreme ruling was upheld by an appeals court in 2014.

    Let's be perfectly clear: blasphemy laws are an affront to human rights, and the very concept of blasphemy is an affront to good sense. If your god needs to be protected from words, then your god is not a god. It really is that simple. Any blasphemy conviction in any country is an attack on human rights, but this is especially egregious.

    What makes this worse is that they are angry at a non-Muslim for failing to believe in the tenets of the Muslim religion, and they tried to execute her for it. Worse, the instigating incident is that they got angry at her for drinking from the same cup as the Muslims were drinking from, thereby making it "dirty." The thing that started all of this was the Pakistani equivalent of having separate drinking fountains for non-whites like much of America once had.

    As racist and bigoted as America is, we haven't had separate drinking fountains for decades, but apparently Pakistani Muslims are still murderously enraged by the thought of non-Muslims drinking from the same stuff they drink from.

    So now of course massive protests are spreading all over Pakistan because she isn't going to be executed for drinking from the same cup as Muslims and for not believing the teaching of someone else's religion that Mohammed was a prophet:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...cross-pakistan

    Fuck you, Pakistan.

    For any Christians reading this, this is a perfect example of why the founding fathers separated church and state, and why it's a bad idea for you to attack the walls that separate church and state. At one time, Puritans used their majorities in local governments to throw Baptists in jail for praying the wrong way. That's why Baptists used to be strong proponents of separation of church and state. But now that Baptists think they will be the ones calling the shots, now suddenly they think separation of church and state is a bad thing. Fuck.

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    Veteran Member Lion IRC's Avatar
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    If blasphemy laws bother you then I presume you advocate free speech?
    In Islam blasphemy is tantamount to hate speech.
    Is hate speech a human right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    If blasphemy laws bother you then I presume you advocate free speech?
    In Islam blasphemy is tantamount to hate speech.
    Is hate speech a human right?
    "In Islam blasphemy is tantamount to hate speech."

    Is that hatred, for a Christian to say Mohammed is not God's prophet?

    Do you agree that's blasphemy, to say Mohammed is not God's prophet?

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    Veteran Member Lion IRC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    If blasphemy laws bother you then I presume you advocate free speech?
    In Islam blasphemy is tantamount to hate speech.
    Is hate speech a human right?
    "In Islam blasphemy is tantamount to hate speech."

    Is that hatred, for a Christian to say Mohammed is not God's prophet?
    In an Islamic State? Yes. They would regard that as the equivalent of what liberal Westerners call hate speech. (Just as a Christian in the West would be accused of inciting hatred against pet lovers if they said beastiality is an abomination.)


    Quote Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
    Do you agree that's blasphemy, to say Mohammed is not God's prophet?
    No. But many/most muslims do.

    Care to answer MY question as to whether hate speech is a human right?
    It can't be one rule for white supremicists and fundies and a different rule for atheist/secular folks who think saying inflammatory stuff about the prophet is a human right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    If blasphemy laws bother you then I presume you advocate free speech?
    In Islam blasphemy is tantamount to hate speech.
    Is hate speech a human right?
    That's horseshit. Have two drinks and call me in the morning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    Care to answer MY question as to whether hate speech is a human right?
    Yes, with restrictions when it comes to the likelihood of inciting harm that's worst than just annoyance or offense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    It can't be one rule for white supremicists and fundies and a different rule for atheist/secular folks who think saying inflammatory stuff about the prophet is a human right.
    You understand it was a Christian lady who said "inflammatory stuff about the prophet", right?

    Her alleged "inflammatory stuff" almost got her killed by fanatics. And for what? For not wanting to convert to their religion. This is one of the reasons church-state separation is very important. Theists are still screaming for this theist's death, because they're bent enough to feel offended about a person who doesn't share their religious views.

    Reason necessitates that blasphemy should be a flat-out right or we (theists and atheists) endure inquisitions. So yes it can be one rule for when white supremacists describe one or more minorities in ways so vicious to the groups themselves that they incite people like Dylan Roof and Robert Bowers to go shoot blacks and Jews. And a different rule for atheist/secular folks who criticize and/or mock religions.

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    Veteran Member Lion IRC's Avatar
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    First you said "Yes, with restrictions"
    Then you said it should be a "flat out right" to speak words that someone else considers blasphemy.

    I'm quite familiar with the details of the case. Restating it too me is unnecessary and irrelevant. It goes without saying that one person's loving affirmation chant is another persons outrageous blasphemy. So your invocation of the word "reason" as the measure of what is and isn't acceptable free speech is pretty naive.

    My point was that outraged Muslims in Pakistan regard PBUH blasphemy as the sectarian equivalent of homophobic/racist hate speech. Lemme see if I can find some counter-example news stories about ANTIFA violence to prove my point. Bear with me. It might take me a while.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    If blasphemy laws bother you then I presume you advocate free speech?
    In Islam blasphemy is tantamount to hate speech.
    Is hate speech a human right?
    Christians and Muslims think blasphemy is hate speech.

    Christians and Muslims also think that asking them to stop persecuting homosexuals counts as persecuting Christians and/or Muslims.

    Blasphemy laws are an affront to human rights.

    Asking you to not be a dick to abused minorities is not an attack on your free speech. Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from criticism. Freedom from criticism would be the exact opposite of freedom of speech. So no, asking you to stop calling African-Americans the n-word does not make you a martyr for human rights like that woman facing a possible lynching for saying that a figure from someone else's religion is not a prophet.

    It only seems that way to you because you honestly think you being criticized is as bad as someone else almost being killed. We expect that kind of arrogance and selfishness given that your religion teaches you that the entire universe was created just to have you in it, so of course you would think that a minor inconvenience to yourself is as bad or worse than the possible execution of a non-white Christian in another country.

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    Veteran Member Lion IRC's Avatar
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    If you demand the (self-appointed) freedom to criticise certain opinions about religion (blasphemy) while not allowing others to equally criticise certain opinions about sexuality (homophobia) then you are a hypocrite - and you therefore forfeit any claim you might otherwise have to be considered objective.

    You just blatantly admitted your own double-standard. That's special pleading.
    Let me know how many red-necked racists and fundy islamists you manage to persuade with your do-as-I-say not do-as-I-do approach.


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    I'm missing the point of the argument here I think - an angry society is lynching a person because she spoke freely. Are we arguing over the harsh punishment? or the disapproval in the first place?

    The whole free speech thing is a blind spot for me. I've been meaning to start a thread on it but I don't know where to begin. I have to research first (I am conflicted)

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