Page 19 of 30 FirstFirst ... 9171819202129 ... LastLast
Results 181 to 190 of 293

Thread: Common theist argument: "You know, I used to be an atheist myself..."

  1. Top | #181
    Elder Contributor Keith&Co.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Far Western Mass
    Posts
    14,363
    Archived
    24,500
    Total Posts
    38,863
    Rep Power
    69
    Quote Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
    In all cases where a well-demonstrated explanation has been found for phenomena, it's been a natural explanation with no immaterial spirits involved.
    And when a competent researcher says 'God only knows' the 'yet' is silent.

  2. Top | #182
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Columbia, SC
    Posts
    808
    Archived
    2,799
    Total Posts
    3,607
    Rep Power
    49
    Quote Originally Posted by Learner View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Wiploc View Post

    It's actually self-parody. It's theists who think there was magic, and that we came from the clay.
    Its not so strange imo, if you take the viewpoint that we are made from the same elements found in the earth e.g. ashes to ashes , dust to dust etc.. (to be moulded like clay).
    Its not a viewpoint that we are made from the same elements found in nature, it is a fact.

    With the Christian belief system the magic is unspoken, and is the lack of explanation about the magical processes that created the creator god. It is absurdly hypocritical to believe that simple self replicating molecules could never arise through natural processes, but that a sophisticated, powerful god just conveniently happens to exist, no explanations needed. That's like believing that little Johnny down the street couldn't possibly have taught himself simple addition and subtraction at age 3, but your own newborn day old baby can solve the gravitational field equations including working out the manifold geometry of spacetime in the presence of complex energy distributions and local singularities. Only several orders of magnitude more ridiculous.
    Last edited by atrib; 02-12-2019 at 01:15 AM.

  3. Top | #183
    Administrator lpetrich's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Lebanon, OR
    Posts
    4,446
    Archived
    16,829
    Total Posts
    21,275
    Rep Power
    74
    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    Speaking of which...Happy Birthday Charles Darwin.
    Please accept this lovely watch as a token of our appreciation for your life's work.

    So if you went to a museum of watches and clocks and other timekeeping devices, would you conclude that they were all designed by a single omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent entity that your sect worships as the One True God?

    It ought to be evident that the designers of those watches are multiple, that they have finite capabilities, and that they are fallible. Since the designers of watches are multiple, finite, and fallible, we conclude that the designers of our planet's biota must also be multiple, finite, and fallible.

  4. Top | #184
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Columbia, SC
    Posts
    808
    Archived
    2,799
    Total Posts
    3,607
    Rep Power
    49
    Quote Originally Posted by lpetrich View Post
    So if you went to a museum of watches and clocks and other timekeeping devices, would you conclude that they were all designed by a single omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent entity that your sect worships as the One True God?

    It ought to be evident that the designers of those watches are multiple, that they have finite capabilities, and that they are fallible. Since the designers of watches are multiple, finite, and fallible, we conclude that the designers of our planet's biota must also be multiple, finite, and fallible.
    He knows all this already. He is feigning ignorance and stupidity to get a rise out of people.

  5. Top | #185
    Veteran Member skepticalbip's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Searching for reality along the long and winding road
    Posts
    4,423
    Archived
    12,976
    Total Posts
    17,399
    Rep Power
    60
    Quote Originally Posted by atrib View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by lpetrich View Post
    So if you went to a museum of watches and clocks and other timekeeping devices, would you conclude that they were all designed by a single omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent entity that your sect worships as the One True God?

    It ought to be evident that the designers of those watches are multiple, that they have finite capabilities, and that they are fallible. Since the designers of watches are multiple, finite, and fallible, we conclude that the designers of our planet's biota must also be multiple, finite, and fallible.
    He knows all this already. He is feigning ignorance and stupidity to get a rise out of people.
    It is rather odd that Lion attributes all sorts of magic to this sky critter but then points out that it couldn't make a watch. Only humans have the power to make such things.

  6. Top | #186
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Between two cities
    Posts
    1,704
    Archived
    56
    Total Posts
    1,760
    Rep Power
    20
    Quote Originally Posted by atrib View Post
    Its not a viewpoint that we are made from the same elements found in nature, it is a fact.

    With the Christian belief system the magic is unspoken, and is the lack of explanation about the magical processes that created the creator god.
    That's like believing that little Johnny down the street couldn't possibly have taught himself simple addition and subtraction at age 3, but your own newborn day old baby can solve the gravitational field equations including working out the manifold geometry of spacetime in the presence of complex energy distributions and local singularities. Only several orders of magnitude more ridiculous.
    I meant, taking the viewpoint that "biblically" it says the same thing ... i.e. made from the earth.

    It is absurdly hypocritical to believe that simple self replicating molecules could never arise through natural processes, but that a sophisticated, powerful god just conveniently happens to exist, no explanations needed.
    Hypocritical? So if one reckons likewise, that its absurd that any Creator could have made those molecules, but philosophically or mathematically could however , make a variety of alternative theories, this would be the explanation(s) needed? Naturalistic magic?
    Last edited by Learner; 02-12-2019 at 04:21 PM.

  7. Top | #187
    Raspberry bilby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    The Sunshine State: The one with Crocs, not Gators
    Posts
    19,722
    Archived
    10,477
    Total Posts
    30,199
    Rep Power
    77
    We are not 'made from the earth' though. We are made from plants and water; And plants are made from air, water, and sunlight.

    The fraction of any animal (including humans) that is made from 'earth', even in the broadest sense, is minuscule. The whole 'made from earth' thing is an error that pre-dates the Bible, and stems from the oversimplified 'earth, air, fire, water' system for attempting to understand reality - under that scheme, it is assumed that people are mostly earth, on the reasonable but completely mistaken basis that we are more solid than we are liquid, gas, or flame.

    Humans are made mostly of Carbon, Oxygen, Hydrogen, and Nitrogen. All of these enter the biosphere from the atmosphere, or from water; not from soil, rocks, or 'earth'.

  8. Top | #188
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Layton, UT
    Posts
    996
    Rep Power
    6
    Quote Originally Posted by Learner View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Worldtraveller View Post
    Really? Based on what?
    Do you mean, when I said the conclusion that it requires a lot of time (or that life was actually created in the lab)?

    Based on ... it hasn't been done .. yet (making life from non organic elements) the part missing in thought, has to be time (via various processes).
    So, because it hasn't been seen in real time and documented by science, you don't believe it, or don't think it exists?

  9. Top | #189
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    3,468
    Rep Power
    15
    Quote Originally Posted by skepticalbip View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by atrib View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by lpetrich View Post
    So if you went to a museum of watches and clocks and other timekeeping devices, would you conclude that they were all designed by a single omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent entity that your sect worships as the One True God?

    It ought to be evident that the designers of those watches are multiple, that they have finite capabilities, and that they are fallible. Since the designers of watches are multiple, finite, and fallible, we conclude that the designers of our planet's biota must also be multiple, finite, and fallible.
    He knows all this already. He is feigning ignorance and stupidity to get a rise out of people.
    It is rather odd that Lion attributes all sorts of magic to this sky critter but then points out that it couldn't make a watch. Only humans have the power to make such things.
    You realise the 'watch' is an analogy right?

    Ipetrich's watch museum would be a monument to design and beauty and creativity and intellectual property. etc.

    You need to go back and read Paley's argument again if you think it implies that only a human can design something with form and function.

  10. Top | #190
    Veteran Member skepticalbip's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Searching for reality along the long and winding road
    Posts
    4,423
    Archived
    12,976
    Total Posts
    17,399
    Rep Power
    60
    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by skepticalbip View Post

    It is rather odd that Lion attributes all sorts of magic to this sky critter but then points out that it couldn't make a watch. Only humans have the power to make such things.
    You realise the 'watch' is an analogy right?

    Ipetrich's watch museum would be a monument to design and beauty and creativity and intellectual property. etc.

    You need to go back and read Paley's argument again if you think it implies that only a human can design something with form and function.
    I understand perfectly. You point at something that was obviously designed and created such as watches, statues, etc. to illustrate that something that was designed required a designer. Then take an absurd illogical leap to claim that everything was designed (with absolutely no rational reason to assume such a thing) to prove an 'ultimate super designer'. It is sorta the ultimate god of the gaps argument (the logical fallacy of argument from ignorance) - exactly how life originated is unknown, therefore god.

    I am constantly amused by the fact that theists actually believe that there are absolutely no unknowns... everything that anyone presents as an unknown can be explained as 'the will of god or god's plan', even though that expression explains nothing.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •