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Thread: Common theist argument: "You know, I used to be an atheist myself..."

  1. Top | #161
    Veteran Member funinspace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith&Co. View Post
    He's really our Creator. We didn't magically spring to life from some primordial ooze.
    See, that's where my alarm sounds. I don't believe we 'sprang magically' from the ooze, or anything else.
    No one I know of teaches 'magically springing.' This is a creationist lampooning of some scientific speculation, which is OKAY for him to hold, now. Really. It just doesn't make sense that when he was a militant atheist, he thought the science said 'magically sprung' from ooze. So it doesn't make sense for him to argue against it as part of his retelling of his own pilgrim's progress.
    Hey, they are just following the lead of some of their early founders, like who ever decided to have Josephus drooling over Jesus, even though by all evidence Josephus remained a Jew. Such laughable fakery...

    "About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Christ."

  2. Top | #162
    Veteran Member Wiploc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith&Co. View Post
    He's really our Creator. We didn't magically spring to life from some primordial ooze.
    See, that's where my alarm sounds. I don't believe we 'sprang magically' from the ooze, or anything else.
    It's actually self-parody. It's theists who think there was magic, and that we came from the clay.

  3. Top | #163
    Administrator lpetrich's Avatar
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    On Josephus's alleged evidence:
    The Testimonium Flavianum • Richard Carrier
    The Josephus Testimonium: Let's Just Admit It's Fake Already • Richard Carrier

    One would expect Josephus to have had a much more jaundiced view of Jesus Christ, like he did of such self-styled prophets as Theudas and "the Egyptian".

  4. Top | #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Worldtraveller View Post
    The tell is usually something like the complexity argument above, or the probably even more common "I realized I didn't have any morals and could do anything". They are always based on some strawman position that no atheist actually holds.
    I so wish this to be true, but sociopaths do exist. And perhaps some of the weaker minded ones are kept from surfacing through religion. But I would wager heavily that sociopaths are more likely to use and abuse others with religion than to be kept "good".

    I don't have data to back that up other than my own bias. Anybody now of any?

  5. Top | #165
    Cyborg with a Tiara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Worldtraveller View Post
    The tell is usually something like the complexity argument above, or the probably even more common "I realized I didn't have any morals and could do anything". They are always based on some strawman position that no atheist actually holds.
    I so wish this to be true, but sociopaths do exist. And perhaps some of the weaker minded ones are kept from surfacing through religion. But I would wager heavily that sociopaths are more likely to use and abuse others with religion than to be kept "good".

    I don't have data to back that up other than my own bias. Anybody now of any?
    You appear to be implying that sociopaths are all atheist so they can justify their sociopathy. I don't believe sociopaths have any trouble whatsoever being religious and assuming the religious doctrine validates their sociopathy. They are sociopaths.

    Or are you implying that just these "former atheists" are all sociopaths because they are claiming the excuse? In which case why are they converting back?

    Not sure at all what the existence of sociopaths has to do with actual atheism or theists lying about atheism. Can you clarify?

  6. Top | #166
    Veteran Member skepticalbip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhea View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Worldtraveller View Post
    The tell is usually something like the complexity argument above, or the probably even more common "I realized I didn't have any morals and could do anything". They are always based on some strawman position that no atheist actually holds.
    I so wish this to be true, but sociopaths do exist. And perhaps some of the weaker minded ones are kept from surfacing through religion. But I would wager heavily that sociopaths are more likely to use and abuse others with religion than to be kept "good".

    I don't have data to back that up other than my own bias. Anybody now of any?
    You appear to be implying that sociopaths are all atheist so they can justify their sociopathy. I don't believe sociopaths have any trouble whatsoever being religious and assuming the religious doctrine validates their sociopathy. They are sociopaths.

    Or are you implying that just these "former atheists" are all sociopaths because they are claiming the excuse? In which case why are they converting back?

    Not sure at all what the existence of sociopaths has to do with actual atheism or theists lying about atheism. Can you clarify?
    I would go further. Religious leaders like Jim Jones, David Koresh, Charles Manson, etc., etc. were all religious nut cases.

  7. Top | #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhea View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Worldtraveller View Post
    The tell is usually something like the complexity argument above, or the probably even more common "I realized I didn't have any morals and could do anything". They are always based on some strawman position that no atheist actually holds.
    I so wish this to be true, but sociopaths do exist.
    Not sure at all what the existence of sociopaths has to do with actual atheism or theists lying about atheism. Can you clarify?
    No need to read anything in. Just notice what I was responding to (the bolded). Some theists who say they would be rapists and murderers without religion, acrually may be telling the truth. Most, as World traveler says are engaging in a straw man (I should hope).

  8. Top | #168
    Cyborg with a Tiara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post
    No need to read anything in. Just notice what I was responding to (the bolded). Some theists who say they would be rapists and murderers without religion, acrually may be telling the truth. Most, as World traveler says are engaging in a straw man (I should hope).
    Gotcha. Thanks.

    KInda scary - and makes me wonder if next time I hear one of them say that (and you’re right, they do!) I will be compelled to ask them, “Oh, you are a sociopath and religion holds you at bay? Do you have psychiatric care?”

  9. Top | #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhea View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post
    No need to read anything in. Just notice what I was responding to (the bolded). Some theists who say they would be rapists and murderers without religion, acrually may be telling the truth. Most, as World traveler says are engaging in a straw man (I should hope).
    Gotcha. Thanks.

    KInda scary - and makes me wonder if next time I hear one of them say that (and you’re right, they do!) I will be compelled to ask them, “Oh, you are a sociopath and religion holds you at bay? Do you have psychiatric care?”
    Exactly. It's a pretty terrifying thing when they admit to having no moral sense aside from obedience to power.

  10. Top | #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiploc View Post

    It's actually self-parody. It's theists who think there was magic, and that we came from the clay.
    Its not so strange imo, if you take the viewpoint that we are made from the same elements found in the earth e.g. ashes to ashes , dust to dust etc.. (to be moulded like clay).

    Genesis 2:7

    7 then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.


    Genesis 3:19

    19 By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, tll you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken;
    for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”

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