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Thread: The human mind

  1. Top | #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koyaanisqatsi View Post
    You have no clue how a mind exists or what it is.

    Certainly untermensche's conception of the mind is much different than yours.

    Though I don't agree entrely with his conception, it is certainly much closer to mine than yours or DBT's. The main difference untermensche and I seem to have is that he attribute's mental powers to the mind that I think should be attributed to the human person. At least he does not attribute those powers to the human brain.

    The mind is not a thing or entity. Therefore, I don't think the mind is an agent that can act in this world. Rather it is the human person who can reason and act for reasons. Because of that we can say he has a mind.

  2. Top | #242
    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
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    The only problem with what you wrote DBT is "conscious decisions" which is something for which there is no basis. So all untermenche is discussing is something that has no physical basis in the terms that you so ably set out.

    As humans who communicate in structured sequences with other humans we believe we are conscious else we would have a problem justifying what we are doing even though animals get along quite well without doing that.

    So there you are. A metaphysical problem which has no scientific solution. Think of consciousness as a convenient fiction humans employ to deceive themselves into being at the base for what what we do. At the same time humans find cause and effect links in animals who don't use language as humans use language to be quite satisfactory to explain their behavior.

    Its as the late Dr. Daniel Wegner said: "Consciousness is a fiction, an illusion".

  3. Top | #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by fromderinside View Post
    The only problem with what you wrote DBT is "conscious decisions" which is something for which there is no basis.
    I know. I didn't mean to say that consciousness determines decisions being made, only that this is our conscious experience, we experience making decisions, thoughts being thought, feelings felt, etc.

    That division between our experience and its underlying production being the source of Mr Untermenche's error. I should have been clearer.

    Quote Originally Posted by fromderinside View Post
    So all untermenche is discussing is something that has no physical basis in the terms that you so ably set out.
    Yes.

  4. Top | #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahab View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Koyaanisqatsi View Post
    You have no clue how a mind exists or what it is.

    Certainly untermensche's conception of the mind is much different than yours.

    Though I don't agree entrely with his conception, it is certainly much closer to mine than yours or DBT's. The main difference untermensche and I seem to have is that he attribute's mental powers to the mind that I think should be attributed to the human person. At least he does not attribute those powers to the human brain.

    The mind is not a thing or entity. Therefore, I don't think the mind is an agent that can act in this world. Rather it is the human person who can reason and act for reasons. Because of that we can say he has a mind.
    A mind that cannot act is a mind not needed.

    The evolutionary advantage of having a mind exists only if the mind can act based on "ideas" with contemplation and planning.

    If the mind is nothing but reflexive activity of a brain it is not needed.

    If the experience of moving the hand any way desired is not directed by the mind willing it then the brain is doing more than moving the hand. It is creating an elaborate delusion.

  5. Top | #245
    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
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    one word reply to all points above

    WHY?

  6. Top | #246
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    Why is having the experience you are ordering the arm to move by doing something with your mind an elaborate delusion if you are not doing something with your mind to order the brain to move the arm?

    What is this thing we are doing with our mind to cause the arm holding still to move?

  7. Top | #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ahab View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Koyaanisqatsi View Post
    You have no clue how a mind exists or what it is.

    Certainly untermensche's conception of the mind is much different than yours.

    Though I don't agree entrely with his conception, it is certainly much closer to mine than yours or DBT's. The main difference untermensche and I seem to have is that he attribute's mental powers to the mind that I think should be attributed to the human person. At least he does not attribute those powers to the human brain.

    The mind is not a thing or entity. Therefore, I don't think the mind is an agent that can act in this world. Rather it is the human person who can reason and act for reasons. Because of that we can say he has a mind.
    A mind that cannot act is a mind not needed.

    The evolutionary advantage of having a mind exists only if the mind can act based on "ideas" with contemplation and planning.

    If the mind is nothing but reflexive activity of a brain it is not needed.

    If the experience of moving the hand any way desired is not directed by the mind willing it then the brain is doing more than moving the hand. It is creating an elaborate delusion.
    It is the brain that acts through the means/medium of both conscious and unconscious mind. Mind doesn't exist without a brain to generate it.

  8. Top | #248
    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
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    No conscious. No mind!

    We understand we are aware of ourselves, our world, and of a time and space in which we are aware. No need to insert 'mind' or 'conscious' there beyond as place holders for incompletely understood behavioral dynamics and encompassing theory.

    We behave as organisms of a particular sort no more no less.

    It's a dance early language burdened humans went through trying to explain their behavior before they realized language was just a part of behavior. Once we got that behind us we settled down and studied behavior and it's underpinnings.

  9. Top | #249
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    'Mind' like 'consciousness' is just just a broad term referring to a collection of attributes and abilities being enabled by a functional brain: the sensations of sight, hearing, smell, touch, taste, related thoughts, feelings, emotions, etc, etc. which come and go in response to stimuli and whatever brain networks happen to be doing. You may forget where you put your keys one moment, then recall the action a few moments later...

  10. Top | #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post

    A mind that cannot act is a mind not needed.

    The evolutionary advantage of having a mind exists only if the mind can act based on "ideas" with contemplation and planning.

    If the mind is nothing but reflexive activity of a brain it is not needed.

    If the experience of moving the hand any way desired is not directed by the mind willing it then the brain is doing more than moving the hand. It is creating an elaborate delusion.
    It is the brain that acts through the means/medium of both conscious and unconscious mind. Mind doesn't exist without a brain to generate it.
    This is only about the 50th time you have droned that worthlessness.

    We are talking about a phenomena created by activity. Not just activity.

    A phenomena that can act and influence the activity that creates it.

    Just because you have no clue what the phenomena is does not demonstrate it is not needed.

    If a subject can autonomously make a guess about the timing of voluntary movements then the subject has autonomy.

    If a subject does not have the autonomy to make a guess about the timing of voluntary movements then the reported times are meaningless.

    In the first case the conclusions many draw from the study (autonomously) must be absurd.

    In the second case the whole study is absurd.

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