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Thread: UK scientists are ‘significantly less religious’ than Brits in general

  1. Top | #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    Pascal was a scientist.
    And there are rapists who are scientists. Does that make rape scientifically valid? His argument had no science in it. I don't mean his science was bad, but rather there was nothing even attempting to be science in his argument. He made a logical argument that rested upon implausible premises that he merely assumed without any justification. And it turns out his premises logically require that one view God as a petulant insecure child who punishes people simply for applying the most unique trait he created them with.


    I bet there are a LOT of religious scientists in India and Indonesia. (Tens of Millions)
    Would there be a million atheist scientists in the UK?
    First, Hinduism is a polytheistic religion, which means it does not suffer from as many logical absurdities and internal contradictions as monotheism does. For example, polytheism does not have to accept the absurd self contradicting notion that a single God who is omniscient and omnipotent and knowingly created the world to be exactly what it was and is, but also loves us. Hinduism also doesn't share the pathetically obvious self-serving egocentrism of Abrahamic monotheism which puts Earth and humans and then center of the Universe and God's concerns.
    IOW, while polytheism and Hinduism still require some rather baseless beliefs, they require significantly less suppression of logic, rational thought, science, and and is required to maintain polytheism than monotheism. And most forms of Buddhism are not theistic at all. Also, b/c those polytheistic religions do not push theism itself of the main point of the religion, there are many who practice and identify with those "religions" without believing in God.

    Second, non-theism is the norm among scientists in India. Only 29% of Indian scientists say that they "believe in God".

    The countries where you'll find the most "theist" scientists are those where you can get jailed or killed if you don't pretend you are still a theists (e.g., Muslim controlled countries).



    If you added up all the religious scientists in the world and compare with the total number of atheist scientists, I'm sure the ratio would be about the same as for the general population.
    The facts show your are definitively wrong. Scientists are consistently less theistic and less religious compared to the general population in their countries. Although the difference is stronger in some countries than others, if you add them all together, being a theist would still be far less common among all the world's scientists than the world's gen pop.

    And one doesn't need to reach the level of being a scientists to realize the intellectual absurdity of theism and religious claims. Consistently, as amount of education increases, theism and religiosity decrease. High school grads are less religious than dropouts, college grads less religious than High school grads, and graduate students are less religious than undergrads.

    And the strong relationship between being less ignorant and being less religious holds when you compare between societies. The least educated societies tend to be the more religious, and the most educated tend to be the least religious. This map shows that the countries with the highest % of people who feel that "religion plays an important role in their daily life" are in Africa, Middle East, and southeast Asia. Predictably, these are the same countries with the lowest average number of years of educations (around 5-6 years).

    South America is slightly less but still rather religious, and predictably those countries have slightly more but still rather low levels of education (about 7.5 years). The South American country with the most education (9.7 years) is Argentina who unsurprisingly is also one of least religious on that continent.

    North America, Northern Europe, and Russia are the lowest in religion and the highest in education (10-13 years).
    And the most religious outlier in Europe, Romania which is the only European country where more than 80% view religion as important, it is also one of the only countries in Europe with less than 10 years of average education, another being Portugal which is also more religious than most of Europe.

    {Darker blue = higher % of people saying "religion is important"}

    So, no matter how you slice it, being more educated and less ignorant is a strong predictor of both individuals and societies becoming less religious and theistic. If course that isn't a guarantee without exceptions, b/c knowledge and intellect are merely tools that applied will lead to atheism. People can and do choose not to honestly apply those tools to the issue of God, and that is how you wind up with theistic scientists. We have theistic scientists for the same reason we have 7.5 foot tall people who have never dunked a basketball, b/c they have never bothered to even try to apply that tool to that domain.

  2. Top | #52
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    Would you accept that there's more Hindu scientists in India than there are atheist scientists in the USA?

    How about Muslim scientists in Indonesia versus atheist scientists in the UK?

    Catholic scientists in Brazil versus atheist scientists in Australia?

  3. Top | #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    Would you accept that there's more Hindu scientists in India than there are atheist scientists in the USA?

    How about Muslim scientists in Indonesia versus atheist scientists in the UK?

    Catholic scientists in Brazil versus atheist scientists in Australia?
    Would you accept that there are fewer Hindu scientists in Japan than there are atheist scientists in the USA?

    How about Muslim scientists in Australia versus atheist scientists in China?

    Catholic scientists in East Timor versus atheist scientists in Russia?

    Apples in New Zealand versus oranges in Spain?

  4. Top | #54
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    But that's exactly what the Op is doing.
    It is taking one country and using it as representative of some bigger picture canard.

    By all means, add Japan into the equation. How many Buddhist/Shinto/Christian scientists in that country?

    Add Russia too. You think the communists got rid of all the Orthodox scientists?

    And China? You know what the word Tiananmen means right? 天安门

    My point is that if you add up the number of ALL the scientists in the world - not just the UK, France, Germany - and divide them into theist vs atheist, I think you will find the ratio is similar to the general population.

    Don't let the celebrity of prominent (noisy) atheists like Lawrence Krauss, Sean Carrol, Richard Dawkins, etc. mislead you into thinking that everyone with a science degree is probably an atheist. #NOMA

  5. Top | #55
    Raspberry bilby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    But that's exactly what the Op is doing.
    It is taking one country and using it as representative of some bigger picture canard.

    By all means, add Japan into the equation. How many Buddhist/Shinto/Christian scientists in that country?

    Add Russia too. You think the communists got rid of all the Orthodox scientists?

    And China? You know what the word Tiananmen means right? 天安门

    My point is that if you add up the number of ALL the scientists in the world - not just the UK, France, Germany - and divide them into theist vs atheist, I think you will find the ratio is similar to the general population.
    You are wrong. And we can add basic mathematics to the long list of things you don't understand.
    Don't let the celebrity of prominent (noisy) atheists like Lawrence Krauss, Sean Carrol, Richard Dawkins, etc. mislead you into thinking that everyone with a science degree is probably an atheist. #NOMA
    That's irrelevant to the question under consideration, which is whether a random person with a science degree is or is not more likely to be an atheist than any random human.

  6. Top | #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    But that's exactly what the Op is doing.
    It is taking one country and using it as representative of some bigger picture canard.
    The original post only discusses the United Kingdom. The subsequent posts also discuss the USA. It doesn't make a generalisation.

    Your post, on the other hand, wasn't even a generalisation. It's just nonsense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    My point is that if you add up the number of ALL the scientists in the world - not just the UK, France, Germany - and divide them into theist vs atheist, I think you will find the ratio is similar to the general population.
    First worldwide survey of religion and science: No, not all scientists are atheists
    http://news.rice.edu/2015/12/03/firs...-are-atheists/

    The researchers did find that scientists are generally less religious than a given general population. However, there were exceptions to this: 39 percent of scientists in Hong Kong identify as religious compared with 20 percent of the general population of Hong Kong, and 54 percent of scientists in Taiwan identify as religious compared with 44 percent of the general population of Taiwan. Ecklund noted that such patterns challenge longstanding assumptions about the irreligious character of scientists around the world.
    The paper:
    Religion among Scientists in International Context: A New Study of Scientists in Eight Regions
    https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf...78023116664353

    The paper includes a handy graph showing you the difference.



    I'd say this establishes a pretty good pattern, where scientists are less religious than the general population.

    Based on the evidence at hand, what ratio should we predict in other countries?

  7. Top | #57
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    Scientists have believed in a variety of religions and belief systems, though usually those from their social environments. Theoretical science got started in ancient Greece, and these proto-scientists were at least nominally Hellenic pagans. So should we make ourselves convert to the old-time religion of Greece? Complete with accepting the existence of the Olympians and worshipping them.

    As to Blaise Pascal, he dumped his scientific researches for his religious interests when he became a fervent Jansenist. That sect was a quasi-Calvinist Catholic sect. So should one convert to Jansenism because of him?

    Let's consider this proposition. If you convert to Jansenism and Jansenism is right, you will go to Heaven when you die and live happily ever after, and enjoy the sufferings in Hell of Jansenist opponents like Jesuits. But if you convert Jansenism and some other sect is right, then you will have lost nothing. So what do you have to lose?

  8. Top | #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigfield View Post

    The original post only discusses the United Kingdom. The subsequent posts also discuss the USA. It doesn't make a generalisation.

    Your post, on the other hand, wasn't even a generalisation. It's just nonsense.



    First worldwide survey of religion and science: No, not all scientists are atheists
    http://news.rice.edu/2015/12/03/firs...-are-atheists/

    The researchers did find that scientists are generally less religious than a given general population. However, there were exceptions to this: 39 percent of scientists in Hong Kong identify as religious compared with 20 percent of the general population of Hong Kong, and 54 percent of scientists in Taiwan identify as religious compared with 44 percent of the general population of Taiwan. Ecklund noted that such patterns challenge longstanding assumptions about the irreligious character of scientists around the world.
    The paper:
    Religion among Scientists in International Context: A New Study of Scientists in Eight Regions
    https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf...78023116664353

    The paper includes a handy graph showing you the difference.



    I'd say this establishes a pretty good pattern, where scientists are less religious than the general population.

    Based on the evidence at hand, what ratio should we predict in other countries?

    Thank for the chart.

    It's very helpful because it shows that if 59% of scientists in a huge populatIon like India are 'religious' then, numerically, they could arguably swamp the number of atheist scientists in a smaller country like the UK.

    So if you add up all the theist scientists globally and do the same for...[Lion IRC repeating himself]

  9. Top | #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bigfield View Post

    The original post only discusses the United Kingdom. The subsequent posts also discuss the USA. It doesn't make a generalisation.

    Your post, on the other hand, wasn't even a generalisation. It's just nonsense.



    First worldwide survey of religion and science: No, not all scientists are atheists
    http://news.rice.edu/2015/12/03/firs...-are-atheists/

    The researchers did find that scientists are generally less religious than a given general population. However, there were exceptions to this: 39 percent of scientists in Hong Kong identify as religious compared with 20 percent of the general population of Hong Kong, and 54 percent of scientists in Taiwan identify as religious compared with 44 percent of the general population of Taiwan. Ecklund noted that such patterns challenge longstanding assumptions about the irreligious character of scientists around the world.
    The paper:
    Religion among Scientists in International Context: A New Study of Scientists in Eight Regions
    https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf...78023116664353

    The paper includes a handy graph showing you the difference.



    I'd say this establishes a pretty good pattern, where scientists are less religious than the general population.

    Based on the evidence at hand, what ratio should we predict in other countries?

    Thank for the chart.

    It's very helpful because it shows that if 59% of scientists in a huge populatIon like India are 'religious' then, numerically, they could arguably swamp the number of atheist scientists in a smaller country like the UK.

    So if you add up all the theist scientists globally and do the same for...[Lion IRC repeating himself]
    But the 77% of non-atheist non-scientists in India having already 'swamped' the non-atheist scientists, the effect on the global figure is still to produce a far larger proportion of atheists in science than there are in the general population.

    For fuck's sake learn some basic arithmetic. You are making an even greater fool of yourself than usual, and that's quite a feat.

  10. Top | #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by arithmetic
    800 Hindu scientists (59%) in India + 40 Christian scientists (27%) in the UK = 840
    556 atheist scientists (41%) in India + 108 atheist scientists (73%) in the UK = 664
    Now. Do atheist scientists outnumber theist scientists?

    Hint for bilby


    840>664


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