Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 30

Thread: Before Darwin, was deism or atheism the most reasonable position?

  1. Top | #11
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    3,468
    Rep Power
    17
    No, it's more like...
    Why does your self-professed ignorance give you the right to presume everyone else is equally ignorant?

  2. Top | #12
    Quantum Hot Dog Kharakov's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    OCCaUSA
    Posts
    4,344
    Archived
    3,383
    Total Posts
    7,727
    Rep Power
    74
    Well, before I knew about evolution, I argued against God. I thought it was made up shit that rich spoiled kids used as an excuse to rip off poor kids like me.

    It is, of course, just that. But rich spoiled pieces of shit evolved better defense, and they get the goods in this life, and believe they get them in the "next" too.

    I remember this one guy, Brophy, total Christian, hustles, does coke all the time, bangs hot strippers, and believes in God. Enjoys the good life, while using the poor to live it. Doesn't do hard work- just hustles, talks, etc. while others do the shit work for less income.

    Focused on developing deception skills. He's a smart guy, but people who get pushed out of using the deception skillset because they hate the way the rip off artists rip them off... like me? End up doing the shit work, getting little in return for it, and watch the pieces of shit like Brophy (who is really fun to be around) get all the good stuff.

    Hell, if I attacked the fucker, I'd feel bad. He's that good of a hustler. And I'd go to jail, because hustlers rule the nation. Right? So I get very little, I don't rip off people, and I get screwed again and again my whole life. Just a demonstration that ripping someone off enough will make them stay on the bottom, because they hate you fucking lying piece of shit hustlers... but can't do anything about it because you have all the power. Sigh.

  3. Top | #13
    Veteran Member Opoponax's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    California Central Coast
    Posts
    1,384
    Rep Power
    12
    I didn't need science either. My first true steps toward atheism came from reading history with respect to when the Bible was written, who wrote it, how it was put together, and how it resembled older stories from earlier cultures. Then came logic and philosophy, which addressed questions I'd had, but couldn't define on my own well enough to decide with any certainty about the whole god thing. Combine that with the history factor and I've never looked back.

    Science actually came last. To me, as it applies to religious claims, it's just an ongoing, "Actually, no. This why X happens. It has nothing to do with an angry guy in the clouds."

    With so much good information available nowadays, it's shocking that people hold onto such antiquated beliefs.

  4. Top | #14
    Veteran Member skepticalbip's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Searching for reality along the long and winding road
    Posts
    4,812
    Archived
    12,976
    Total Posts
    17,788
    Rep Power
    62
    Quote Originally Posted by Opoponax View Post
    I didn't need science either. My first true steps toward atheism came from reading history with respect to when the Bible was written, who wrote it, how it was put together, and how it resembled older stories from earlier cultures. Then came logic and philosophy, which addressed questions I'd had, but couldn't define on my own well enough to decide with any certainty about the whole god thing. Combine that with the history factor and I've never looked back.

    Science actually came last. To me, as it applies to religious claims, it's just an ongoing, "Actually, no. This why X happens. It has nothing to do with an angry guy in the clouds."

    With so much good information available nowadays, it's shocking that people hold onto such antiquated beliefs.
    My grandfather was a Methodist minister and the founder of the First Methodist Church in my home town so I grew up being spoon fed 'the truth'. However, even as a kid I was always curious and needed to understand rather than accept and believe. It was the descriptions of events in the Bible that were contrary to how I understood the world worked and the blatant self inconsistencies in the Bible that set me on the road to atheism by my early teens. If there were such a thing as a saint then I think my grandfather would qualify... he always gently tried to keep me on his path, trying to answer my continuing questions, but gracefully allowed me to follow my own path.

  5. Top | #15
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    16,409
    Archived
    42,293
    Total Posts
    58,702
    Rep Power
    85
    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    No, it's more like...
    Why does your self-professed ignorance give you the right to presume everyone else is equally ignorant?
    Well, it's not a default presumption, it has to do with the basis they provide in order to profess their lack of ignorance. When they can't back that up, then the assumption that they are equally ignorant becomes warranted.

  6. Top | #16
    Elder Contributor Keith&Co.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Far Western Mass
    Posts
    15,785
    Archived
    24,500
    Total Posts
    40,285
    Rep Power
    73
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    No, it's more like...
    Why does your self-professed ignorance give you the right to presume everyone else is equally ignorant?
    Well, it's not a default presumption, it has to do with the basis they provide in order to profess their lack of ignorance. When they can't back that up, then the assumption that they are equally ignorant becomes warranted.
    Yeah, it's really not based on my self-professed ignorance.
    It's when they're supporting their argument pretty much by saying, "You should believe me because it's what I believe."

  7. Top | #17
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    seattle
    Posts
    4,748
    Rep Power
    11
    I think the problem is defining atheism. Rejecting god is not necessarily rejecting supernatural. I believe Aristotle was a kind of animist.

    Conservative Christians view evolution as an atheist attack on the creation myth. Theory of evolution makes people atheist.

    There was an ancient Greek who theorized all life began in the sea.

  8. Top | #18
    Veteran Member Cheerful Charlie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Houston, Texas
    Posts
    4,544
    Archived
    3,884
    Total Posts
    8,428
    Rep Power
    56
    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    I think the problem is defining atheism. Rejecting god is not necessarily rejecting supernatural. I believe Aristotle was a kind of animist.

    Conservative Christians view evolution as an atheist attack on the creation myth. Theory of evolution makes people atheist.

    There was an ancient Greek who theorized all life began in the sea.

    Anaximander
    Cheerful Charlie

  9. Top | #19
    Formerly Joedad
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    PA USA
    Posts
    4,940
    Archived
    5,039
    Total Posts
    9,979
    Rep Power
    73
    Quote Originally Posted by James Brown View Post
    It all comes down to how comfortable you are with "I don't know."

    For some people, it's an impossible position.
    Gods are like sugar. Most people grow up liking sugar, but too much sugar is bad so learned folk start using less and less sugar. They think they've eliminated the sugar but when reading labels find that sugar is in almost everything. So they start using only the things that don't have added sugar. They end up being healthier than their former selves and also healthier than their fellow sugar-eaters.

  10. Top | #20
    Cyborg with a Tiara
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Recluse
    Posts
    7,478
    Archived
    9,040
    Total Posts
    16,518
    Rep Power
    81
    This is an interesting question. Prior to having an explanation supported by actual data, we still had observational data. We saw that things were born from things. We saw that things looked like their parents somewhat, but not exactly - changing over time. We saw that sometimes the things looked nothing like their parents, through mutation. People had been preferentially saving seeds for a very long time before understanding evolution scientifically.

    So the question here, "in the absence of understanding the mechanism, would people have preferentially made one up that looked practically nothing like what they saw, and been more comfortable with that?"

    I'm not sure that would be true for people who were not steeped in lore, as these 19th century people certainly were. So maybe deist was a more "reasonable" position as one leaves behind the crumbling lore of Christianity. By "crumbling lore" I mean what was obviously no longer reasonable to them as they left Christianity in droves. Perhaps deism was only "more reasonable" in the context of being steps away rather than a full departure. But in hindsight? No it's not more reasonable to continue to assume half of what you used to assume when you've just calved yet another berg off your religious shelf. It makes better sense to step back and re-evaluate the foundations.

Similar Threads

  1. The rise of deism and atheism in Turkey
    By Copernicus in forum General Religion
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 05-15-2018, 06:52 PM
  2. Deism
    By SLD in forum Existence of God(s)
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 04-09-2018, 03:49 AM
  3. Moralistic Therapeutic Deism -- or Liberal Religion?
    By lpetrich in forum General Religion
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 11-22-2017, 06:51 AM
  4. Why would a reasonable person believe in God?
    By DrZoidberg in forum Existence of God(s)
    Replies: 301
    Last Post: 01-28-2016, 07:59 AM
  5. A Reasonable Emotion
    By AthenaAwakened in forum Natural Science
    Replies: 51
    Last Post: 01-22-2015, 03:13 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •