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Thread: No such thing as moral or immoral behavior. Only civilized and uncivilized behavior

  1. Top | #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by no-one-particular View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ronburgundy View Post

    Legitimate is still a moral judgment. The only objective judgments are those involving what does or does not exist. Any positive or negative evaluation of things that exists or assertions that some ideal state is what ought to exist is a moral judgment.
    The definition you gave refers to only one type of society, and possibly only to a hypothetical idealized one. Are you claiming this is the only type of society? If not, then you must be claiming either that this is the preferred type of society or the only one worthy of being called "civilized", both of which are subjective moral judgments. The simple notion that civilization is a good thing is a moral judgment and there inherent moral judgments in the standard definitions of the word civilized:
    OED: polite, courteous, well mannered, good mannered, civil, decorous, gentlemanly, ladylike, gracious
    As I said:

    The Rationalist position: Civilization and civilized behavior are emergent properties that arises whenever you have a large number of objective human beings interacting with one another. A civilized society is a society governed by civilized laws. Civilized laws do not give any one person or any one group of people any special rights. All people have equal rights in a civilized society. Civilized behavior is behavior that respects civilized laws, rules, and expectations.

    (Equal rights. Equal protection. Equal pay for equal work. Equal punishment for equal crimes.)
    It is still subjective, if you are assuming that there is anything at all good, positive, or desirable about a "civilized" society, or "rights", or "respecting laws". And if you not assuming that there is anything positive or desirable about these things, then that would be in contradiction to how these terms are typically used.

  2. Top | #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by no-one-particular View Post
    An objective person is a person with sufficient objectivity to understand that the universe does not revolve around their ego...
    Actually it does.

    My mind, for me, is the center of all things.

    Morality flows from compassion, from empathy, from "positive" emotions.

    I am kind to the stranger because it is positive for me to be so. I gain by being that way. I am less hollow and alone.

    Following arbitrary laws, like drug war laws, is based on fear and cowering to authority.

    It is something that makes one more hollow.

  3. Top | #33
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    There is no such thing as moral or immoral behavior. There is only civilized and uncivilized behavior.

    A civilized society is a society whose laws do not favor any one person or any one group of people. The more a society treats everyone as equals the more civilized it is.

    Equal rights. Equal protection. Equal pay for equal work. Equal punishment for equal crimes.

    Civilization is an emergent property the monetary system which is a an emergent property of psychology which is an emergent property of biology which is an emergent property of chemistry which is an emergency property of particle physics.

    Some people seem to think that because every person and every society has different values and goals then it is impossible for there to be any universal laws of civilized society. That is simply not true.

    Think of the process of achieving ones goal as driving to a distant point. Everyone has a different starting point and a different end point. But regardless of where people are going, they all need traffic lights and traffic laws or else no one will ever get anywhere.

    The following are generally recognized as necessary for civilized society to function:

    1. Written laws
    2. Constitution
    3. Laws apply to everyone including goverment officials
    4. One vote per citizen (of sufficient age and maturity)
    5. Every vote counts
    6. No unnecessary detainment or detention (Habeas corpus)
    7. No Indefinite imprisonment
    8. Speedy trial
    9. Presumption of innocence
    10. Cant be tried twice
    11. Name, rank, and serial number only
    12. No breaking of contracts
    13. No damaging, destroying, or stealing others property
    14. No inflicting bodily harm on others
    15. No inflicting psychological harm on others (No torture)
    16. No invading the privacy of others
    17. No raping
    18. Equal pay for equal work
    19. Equal punishment for equal crimes
    20. Free Marketplace of ideas

    All the rules above follow from the principle that all people are equal in the eyes of the law. But treating everyone as equals is not the same thing as treating everyone exactly the same. If we treated everyone the way that extroverts want to be treated then people who are introverted would suffer. Treating everyone as if they were exactly the same is pseudo-civilization.
    There is no such thing as moral or immoral behavior. Only civilized and uncivilized behavior. Civilized laws are laws that do not give any one person or any one group of people any special rights above what all others have. The more a society treats everyone as equals the more civilized it is.

  4. Top | #34
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    n-o-p said:-

    A civilized society is a society whose laws do not favor any one person or any one group of people. The more a society treats everyone as equals the more civilized it is.
    How big is your "society"? Family? Tribe? Nation? Masonic Lodge? "Race"? Global "family"?

    Gods and Morality are both human inventions. Useful in holding/forcing togetherness on others, and justifying the "inferiority " of those who refuse to join in your togetherness, an inferiority that can, and has, frequently resulted in slavery and annihilation of other "societies" of varying sizes.

  5. Top | #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4321lynx View Post
    n-o-p said:-

    A civilized society is a society whose laws do not favor any one person or any one group of people. The more a society treats everyone as equals the more civilized it is.
    How big is your "society"? Family? Tribe? Nation? Masonic Lodge? "Race"? Global "family"?

    Gods and Morality are both human inventions. Useful in holding/forcing togetherness on others, and justifying the "inferiority " of those who refuse to join in your togetherness, an inferiority that can, and has, frequently resulted in slavery and annihilation of other "societies" of varying sizes.
    What part of "everyone" did you not understand?

    It includes everyone who is subject to that societies laws.
    There is no such thing as moral or immoral behavior. Only civilized and uncivilized behavior. Civilized laws are laws that do not give any one person or any one group of people any special rights above what all others have. The more a society treats everyone as equals the more civilized it is.

  6. Top | #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by no-one-particular View Post
    An objective person is a person with sufficient objectivity to understand that the universe does not revolve around their ego...
    Actually it does.

    My mind, for me, is the center of all things.

    Morality flows from compassion, from empathy, from "positive" emotions.

    I am kind to the stranger because it is positive for me to be so. I gain by being that way. I am less hollow and alone.

    Following arbitrary laws, like drug war laws, is based on fear and cowering to authority.

    It is something that makes one more hollow.
    And sometimes, laws are created for good intentions based on bad ideas. A civilized civilization will realize when these ideas and laws are counter-productive, and have unwanted side effects or unforeseen consequences. The problem is when bad ideas become deeply embedded parts of a culture, buttressed by bad ideas about say, race, ideology or religion. Or bad political fads on the day. When competence, logic and reason are abandoned, a civilization becomes a bad one.
    Cheerful Charlie

  7. Top | #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by no-one-particular View Post
    An objective person is a person with sufficient objectivity to understand that the universe does not revolve around their ego...
    Actually it does.

    My mind, for me, is the center of all things.

    Morality flows from compassion, from empathy, from "positive" emotions.

    I am kind to the stranger because it is positive for me to be so. I gain by being that way. I am less hollow and alone.

    Following arbitrary laws, like drug war laws, is based on fear and cowering to authority.

    It is something that makes one more hollow.
    civilization is not about empathy. Its about reason and logic. it's about realizing that if you want people to respect your rights then you must respect their rights too
    There is no such thing as moral or immoral behavior. Only civilized and uncivilized behavior. Civilized laws are laws that do not give any one person or any one group of people any special rights above what all others have. The more a society treats everyone as equals the more civilized it is.

  8. Top | #38
    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
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    You're both right/wrong.

    Social conditions drive evolution of empathy and sharing. They are the same thing actually. Empathy arises from feeling what one senses in the behavior of others around one as being similar to how one feels about what is around one. Civilization arises from these feelings which is to say one uses what one senses to make rules for social behavior in groups.

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