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Thread: Did the Biblical God Create the Universe from Nothing?

  1. Top | #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    According to the Oxford Commentary interpretation of Genesis is not clear. It could mean something like 'out of chaos god brought order'.
    This would be much more in keeping with the common cosmology of the ancient near east. For them, the logical opposite of existence was a state of discomposition, rather than a fictive state of utter absence. The concept of zero was more than a thousand years away when the great oral traditions of greater Mesopotamia were forming. God made people by "fashioning them from clay", not zapping them into existence; most of creation was brought up "out of the waters".
    As the saying goes, you are a real trip. You spun yet another interpretation. You would be representative of the gospels' legalists. Intellectualism over meaning in life.

  2. Top | #12
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    According to the Oxford Commentary interpretation of Genesis is not clear. It could mean something like 'out of chaos god brought order'.
    This would be much more in keeping with the common cosmology of the ancient near east. For them, the logical opposite of existence was a state of discomposition, rather than a fictive state of utter absence. The concept of zero was more than a thousand years away when the great oral traditions of greater Mesopotamia were forming. God made people by "fashioning them from clay", not zapping them into existence; most of creation was brought up "out of the waters".
    As the saying goes, you are a real trip. You spun yet another interpretation. You would be representative of the gospels' legalists. Intellectualism over meaning in life.
    Gosh Steve, tell me how you really feel. If this is how you respond to someone agreeing with you, I'd hate to get on your bad side!

    In any case, I disagree with the claim that "intellectualism" is opposed to "meaning". I find considerable meaning in academic study, indeed more meaning than I generally find in popular culture, which is correct in matters of fact only accidentally.

  3. Top | #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post

    As the saying goes, you are a real trip. You spun yet another interpretation. You would be representative of the gospels' legalists. Intellectualism over meaning in life.
    Gosh Steve, tell me how you really feel. If this is how you respond to someone agreeing with you, I'd hate to get on your bad side!

    In any case, I disagree with the claim that "intellectualism" is opposed to "meaning". I find considerable meaning in academic study, indeed more meaning than I generally find in popular culture, which is correct in matters of fact only accidentally.
    You are doing what most Christians do. Emersion in the bible and endless interpretations. Not a criticism, an observation. It is how Christians derive pleasure and happiness. Like a sophisticated mantra of sorts. Think about nothing else.

    The intellectual l theists are about that ongoing discussion with no end. Others actually achieve a spiritual sate. True of any philosophy or religion. They come to understand meaning.

    Other than an intellectual tidbit what does interpretation of Genesis mean or affect your spiritual state?

  4. Top | #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post

    As the saying goes, you are a real trip. You spun yet another interpretation. You would be representative of the gospels' legalists. Intellectualism over meaning in life.
    Gosh Steve, tell me how you really feel. If this is how you respond to someone agreeing with you, I'd hate to get on your bad side!

    In any case, I disagree with the claim that "intellectualism" is opposed to "meaning". I find considerable meaning in academic study, indeed more meaning than I generally find in popular culture, which is correct in matters of fact only accidentally.
    You are doing what most Christians do. Emersion in the bible and endless interpretations. Not a criticism, an observation. It is how Christians derive pleasure and happiness. Like a sophisticated mantra of sorts. Think about nothing else.

    The intellectual l theists are about that ongoing discussion with no end. Others actually achieve a spiritual sate. True of any philosophy or religion. They come to understand meaning.

    Other than an intellectual tidbit what does interpretation of Genesis mean or affect your spiritual state?
    Endless interpretations? The idea that the ancient world believed in a primordial ordering process is pretty much scholarly consensus, and not just among Christians. Indeed, I'm not sure how many ANE archaeologists, papyrologists, etc are in fact Christians. You can read works like Genesis, Gilgamesh, Thunder, etc, for yourself, and see that these themes are prevalent, without needing anyone to interpret it to you, whether Christian or otherwise.

    You are entirely obsessed with my Christian identity, calling me out in thread after thread for no reason and to no useful purpose. I am not obsessed with faith labels in the way that you are, nor does Christian or Pagan identity solely or even mainly drive my interest in the ancient world. You need to get that bee out of your bonnet if we're going to be able to have a real conversation about anything. Though happy to answer honest questions, I am not interested in endlessly talking about my personal faith as though it were the only basis on which my opinions or knowledge have any merit. That's stereotyping, not conversation, and I get bored with it very quickly. Believe it or not, it is entirely possible to have a rational conversation with someone who claims a different faith label from you. So get your head out of your ass, please, and speak to me like a human being rather than a member of some archetypal group of your own invention.

    I'm sorry if this comes off as a bit salty, but this really does annoy me. You yourself posted an opinion in a thread about the Bible detailing your personal interpretation, a thread to which my only contribution was to bring in extra-Biblical context to helpfully back up your point, and you responded by insulting me and accusing me of being obsessed with the Bible, a book that my response didn't even mention aside from the narrow issue at the center of the thread itself, ie, a theme which is present in a few lines of Genesis and a whole corpus of other works. I'm a friendly guy, but that doesn't mean I will be forever tolerant with abuse, misrepresentation, religious bigotry, and other such bullshit. Maybe if you stuck to the topic at hand instead of making personal attacks on other posters, it would help. The linked posts above don't even mention the thread topic; they're entirely an attack on me with no other content. Is that how you think rational adults should converse with each other?

  5. Top | #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post

    You are doing what most Christians do. Emersion in the bible and endless interpretations. Not a criticism, an observation. It is how Christians derive pleasure and happiness. Like a sophisticated mantra of sorts. Think about nothing else.

    The intellectual l theists are about that ongoing discussion with no end. Others actually achieve a spiritual sate. True of any philosophy or religion. They come to understand meaning.

    Other than an intellectual tidbit what does interpretation of Genesis mean or affect your spiritual state?
    Endless interpretations? The idea that the ancient world believed in a primordial ordering process is pretty much scholarly consensus, and not just among Christians. Indeed, I'm not sure how many ANE archaeologists, papyrologists, etc are in fact Christians. You can read works like Genesis, Gilgamesh, Thunder, etc, for yourself, and see that these themes are prevalent, without needing anyone to interpret it to you, whether Christian or otherwise.

    You are entirely obsessed with my Christian identity, calling me out in thread after thread for no reason and to no useful purpose. I am not obsessed with faith labels in the way that you are, nor does Christian or Pagan identity solely or even mainly drive my interest in the ancient world. You need to get that bee out of your bonnet if we're going to be able to have a real conversation about anything. Though happy to answer honest questions, I am not interested in endlessly talking about my personal faith as though it were the only basis on which my opinions or knowledge have any merit. That's stereotyping, not conversation, and I get bored with it very quickly. Believe it or not, it is entirely possible to have a rational conversation with someone who claims a different faith label from you. So get your head out of your ass, please, and speak to me like a human being rather than a member of some archetypal group of your own invention.

    I'm sorry if this comes off as a bit salty, but this really does annoy me. You yourself posted an opinion in a thread about the Bible detailing your personal interpretation, a thread to which my only contribution was to bring in extra-Biblical context to helpfully back up your point, and you responded by insulting me and accusing me of being obsessed with the Bible, a book that my response didn't even mention aside from the narrow issue at the center of the thread itself, ie, a theme which is present in a few lines of Genesis and a whole corpus of other works. I'm a friendly guy, but that doesn't mean I will be forever tolerant with abuse, misrepresentation, religious bigotry, and other such bullshit. Maybe if you stuck to the topic at hand instead of making personal attacks on other posters, it would help. The linked posts above don't even mention the thread topic; they're entirely an attack on me with no other content. Is that how you think rational adults should converse with each other?
    Salty? In the real world you would have to work very hard to offend me. There is nothing to take offense. If I were Christian I would say being in the spirit and walking with Jesus there is nothing to be disturbed about. I feel good and am happy.

    Obviously I am challenging you on your self identification as Christian and your lengthy dissertations. Is Christianity ritual and debate on scripture or are there underlying spiritual truths on living?

  6. Top | #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post

    You are doing what most Christians do. Emersion in the bible and endless interpretations. Not a criticism, an observation. It is how Christians derive pleasure and happiness. Like a sophisticated mantra of sorts. Think about nothing else.

    The intellectual l theists are about that ongoing discussion with no end. Others actually achieve a spiritual sate. True of any philosophy or religion. They come to understand meaning.

    Other than an intellectual tidbit what does interpretation of Genesis mean or affect your spiritual state?
    Endless interpretations? The idea that the ancient world believed in a primordial ordering process is pretty much scholarly consensus, and not just among Christians. Indeed, I'm not sure how many ANE archaeologists, papyrologists, etc are in fact Christians. You can read works like Genesis, Gilgamesh, Thunder, etc, for yourself, and see that these themes are prevalent, without needing anyone to interpret it to you, whether Christian or otherwise.

    You are entirely obsessed with my Christian identity, calling me out in thread after thread for no reason and to no useful purpose. I am not obsessed with faith labels in the way that you are, nor does Christian or Pagan identity solely or even mainly drive my interest in the ancient world. You need to get that bee out of your bonnet if we're going to be able to have a real conversation about anything. Though happy to answer honest questions, I am not interested in endlessly talking about my personal faith as though it were the only basis on which my opinions or knowledge have any merit. That's stereotyping, not conversation, and I get bored with it very quickly. Believe it or not, it is entirely possible to have a rational conversation with someone who claims a different faith label from you. So get your head out of your ass, please, and speak to me like a human being rather than a member of some archetypal group of your own invention.

    I'm sorry if this comes off as a bit salty, but this really does annoy me. You yourself posted an opinion in a thread about the Bible detailing your personal interpretation, a thread to which my only contribution was to bring in extra-Biblical context to helpfully back up your point, and you responded by insulting me and accusing me of being obsessed with the Bible, a book that my response didn't even mention aside from the narrow issue at the center of the thread itself, ie, a theme which is present in a few lines of Genesis and a whole corpus of other works. I'm a friendly guy, but that doesn't mean I will be forever tolerant with abuse, misrepresentation, religious bigotry, and other such bullshit. Maybe if you stuck to the topic at hand instead of making personal attacks on other posters, it would help. The linked posts above don't even mention the thread topic; they're entirely an attack on me with no other content. Is that how you think rational adults should converse with each other?
    Salty? In the real world you would have to work very hard to offend me. There is nothing to take offense. If I were Christian I would say being in the spirit and walking with Jesus there is nothing to be disturbed about. I feel good and am happy.

    Obviously I am challenging you on your self identification as Christian and your lengthy dissertations. Is Christianity ritual and debate on scripture or are there underlying spiritual truths on living?
    Of course there are. But there's no reason literacy can't be a part of spirituality as well. Indeed, I can't think of any mystic whose work I respect who wasn't a lover of learning. Pietist anti-intellectual nonsense has no place in an educated world.

    And you have a lot of cheek, typing out insults then counseling others to be calm. If you don't want people to be upset with you, try not attacking them for no reason. My only crime in this thread was to agree with you ffs. I really regret it now.

  7. Top | #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post

    Salty? In the real world you would have to work very hard to offend me. There is nothing to take offense. If I were Christian I would say being in the spirit and walking with Jesus there is nothing to be disturbed about. I feel good and am happy.

    Obviously I am challenging you on your self identification as Christian and your lengthy dissertations. Is Christianity ritual and debate on scripture or are there underlying spiritual truths on living?
    Of course there are. But there's no reason literacy can't be a part of spirituality as well. Indeed, I can't think of any mystic whose work I respect who wasn't a lover of learning. Pietist anti-intellectual nonsense has no place in an educated world.

    And you have a lot of cheek, typing out insults then counseling others to be calm. If you don't want people to be upset with you, try not attacking them for no reason. My only crime in this thread was to agree with you ffs. I really regret it now.
    In the future I will refrain from responding to your posts as it is apparently bothersome to you.

  8. Top | #18
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    Or this.

  9. Top | #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post

    Salty? In the real world you would have to work very hard to offend me. There is nothing to take offense. If I were Christian I would say being in the spirit and walking with Jesus there is nothing to be disturbed about. I feel good and am happy.

    Obviously I am challenging you on your self identification as Christian and your lengthy dissertations. Is Christianity ritual and debate on scripture or are there underlying spiritual truths on living?
    Of course there are. But there's no reason literacy can't be a part of spirituality as well. Indeed, I can't think of any mystic whose work I respect who wasn't a lover of learning. Pietist anti-intellectual nonsense has no place in an educated world.

    And you have a lot of cheek, typing out insults then counseling others to be calm. If you don't want people to be upset with you, try not attacking them for no reason. My only crime in this thread was to agree with you ffs. I really regret it now.
    In the future I will refrain from responding to your posts as it is apparently bothersome to you.
    Or you could just be polite, and perhaps respond to the content of my posts rather than bigoted summations of my character.

  10. Top | #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by HaRaAYaH View Post
    Or this.
    Mystical Mumbo Jumbo.

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