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Thread: Did we win?

  1. Top | #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigfield View Post
    Churches still don't pay tax, though. So the political fight for secularism isn't over yet.
    This is an excellent delineation. I would consider we have won when no cult can be given tax exempt status.

  2. Top | #12
    Veteran Member Cheerful Charlie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    Yes
    You won. Or at the very least achieved a nil-all-draw. #post_atheism
    And so your 'on-trend' counter-culture boldness has passed its shelf life use-by date.
    So 2008

    Now, get on with your life. Tic toc. Tic toc.
    It certainly has where I live (Toronto area). The bible pushers were never huge here though. I've heard it was also never huge in Australia? Is that true? Has it also died down significantly in the bible belt?
    Down here in Texas, Buckle of the Bible Belt, Bible thumping fundies are still rampant and numerous. Our State Board Of Education is larded with creationists peddling superstition. Every time we have to consider new school textbooks, we have to battle them tooth and nail to prevent them from forcing creationism into the schools, or peddling faux history text books on the children of Texas. Women's health issues supporters have to battle far right fundy supported politicians 24/7. Climate change is a dirty set of words to many who are soaked in fundamentalist Bible literalism. Deep in the heart of savage America, militant anti-intellectualism marches on.
    Cheerful Charlie

  3. Top | #13
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post
    About a decade ago I was deep in the mix of the Atheist vs Christian debates. I've been an atheist, and anti-religion since childhood, but this was a fevered pitch of it that I hadn't seen until then. Then more recently my focus has switched away from Atheism vs Fundamentalist Christian and more towards Identity Politics of both the left and right. The Sam Harris interview with Cenk Uyger in which Sam had moved from attacking Christianity and onto Islam and Cenk's (and Aflek's) gut reaction to scramble to protect islam/Muslims may have been the transition point for me.

    Today I don't meet or see many fundamentalist Christians pushing their religion on others. It hasn't been done to me for a long time now. It seems to have become not just accepted, but almost cool to be an Atheist. We used to get reactions of horror to it. Are we still the "most hated group" and is being an atheist still the one thing that will prevent you from taking office? Or have we won?

    Note, I'm talking about the west. Go to many parts of the world and atheism is still something you need to keep secretive about, and I don't only mean in the middle east. Go to the Philippines for example and talk against religion and you won't like the reactions. I have heard it is similar in south america but I haven't been there more than for a few days in Galapagos, so somebody can correct me / inform me on that.
    Don't worry, there will always be someone you can point to as "the enemy".

  4. Top | #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheerful Charlie View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    Yes
    You won. Or at the very least achieved a nil-all-draw. #post_atheism
    And so your 'on-trend' counter-culture boldness has passed its shelf life use-by date.
    So 2008

    Now, get on with your life. Tic toc. Tic toc.
    It certainly has where I live (Toronto area). The bible pushers were never huge here though. I've heard it was also never huge in Australia? Is that true? Has it also died down significantly in the bible belt?
    Down here in Texas, Buckle of the Bible Belt, Bible thumping fundies are still rampant and numerous. Our State Board Of Education is larded with creationists peddling superstition. Every time we have to consider new school textbooks, we have to battle them tooth and nail to prevent them from forcing creationism into the schools, or peddling faux history text books on the children of Texas. Women's health issues supporters have to battle far right fundy supported politicians 24/7. Climate change is a dirty set of words to many who are soaked in fundamentalist Bible literalism. Deep in the heart of savage America, militant anti-intellectualism marches on.
    I don't understand the climate change denial and bible thumper connection, but it is definitely there. Is it because they think the world is about to end so why not abuse it? Another Christian could just as easily say we are appointed by God to care for the planet and have a pro-environmentalist message. This is the wonder of religion and the bible. It supports whatever you want it to.

  5. Top | #15
    Elder Contributor Keith&Co.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheerful Charlie View Post

    Down here in Texas, Buckle of the Bible Belt, Bible thumping fundies are still rampant and numerous. Our State Board Of Education is larded with creationists peddling superstition. Every time we have to consider new school textbooks, we have to battle them tooth and nail to prevent them from forcing creationism into the schools, or peddling faux history text books on the children of Texas. Women's health issues supporters have to battle far right fundy supported politicians 24/7. Climate change is a dirty set of words to many who are soaked in fundamentalist Bible literalism. Deep in the heart of savage America, militant anti-intellectualism marches on.
    I don't understand the climate change denial and bible thumper connection, but it is definitely there. Is it because they think the world is about to end so why not abuse it? Another Christian could just as easily say we are appointed by God to care for the planet and have a pro-environmentalist message. This is the wonder of religion and the bible. It supports whatever you want it to.
    But the environmental message would require they stop making fun ov Al Gore. Plus, it would reduce profits in certain industries.

    Therefore it is a liberal lie.

  6. Top | #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koyaanisqatsi View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bigfield View Post
    Churches still don't pay tax, though. So the political fight for secularism isn't over yet.
    This is an excellent delineation. I would consider we have won when no cult can be given tax exempt status.
    The State doesn't give charities tax exemption because they (the charities) are religious.
    They give exemptions to encourage charity - which disproportionately saves the State a gazzion buck.
    It's economic rationalism.

    If the State taxed churches, people (parishioners) would stop giving their hard earned (after tax) income to the Church only to have it taxed a SECOND time.

    If the Church dissapeared, it would banktupt (secular) governments around the world to have to feed and clothe and house their own poor. Who is the largest charitable care-giver to HIV AIDS sufferers. (Hint - it's an organisation opposed to gay marriage) What people think would happen if private religious schools suddenly shut down and sent all their students to secular, government funded public schools?

  7. Top | #17
    the baby-eater
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Koyaanisqatsi View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bigfield View Post
    Churches still don't pay tax, though. So the political fight for secularism isn't over yet.
    This is an excellent delineation. I would consider we have won when no cult can be given tax exempt status.
    The State doesn't give charities tax exemption because they (the charities) are religious.
    They give exemptions to encourage charity - which disproportionately saves the State a gazzion buck.
    It's economic rationalism.

    If the State taxed churches, people (parishioners) would stop giving their hard earned (after tax) income to the Church only to have it taxed a SECOND time.
    Nothing wrong with religious charities like Anglicare and UnitingCare Wesley. They can keep their tax exemptions because they are actually charities. Churches are not charities. You should inform your fellow parishioners that donations to real charities are tax deductible and are not taxed once, let alone twice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    What people think would happen if private religious schools suddenly shut down and sent all their students to secular, government funded public schools?
    The government would invest more in public education, the influx of children from middle class families would improve public school culture, and the best teachers would be available to teach everyone. The country would become better educated because we would no longer have an inefficient two-tier system.

    Private religious schools should stop getting government funding; let them survive on church money and tuition fees or not at all. Let's have a public education system that delivers first class educational opportunities for everyone, regardless of socio-economic status, so they can fulfill their potential and contribute to society and the national economy. It's just good economic and social policy.

  8. Top | #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post
    About a decade ago I was deep in the mix of the Atheist vs Christian debates. I've been an atheist, and anti-religion since childhood, but this was a fevered pitch of it that I hadn't seen until then. Then more recently my focus has switched away from Atheism vs Fundamentalist Christian and more towards Identity Politics of both the left and right. The Sam Harris interview with Cenk Uyger in which Sam had moved from attacking Christianity and onto Islam and Cenk's (and Aflek's) gut reaction to scramble to protect islam/Muslims may have been the transition point for me.

    Today I don't meet or see many fundamentalist Christians pushing their religion on others. It hasn't been done to me for a long time now. It seems to have become not just accepted, but almost cool to be an Atheist. We used to get reactions of horror to it. Are we still the "most hated group" and is being an atheist still the one thing that will prevent you from taking office? Or have we won?

    Note, I'm talking about the west. Go to many parts of the world and atheism is still something you need to keep secretive about, and I don't only mean in the middle east. Go to the Philippines for example and talk against religion and you won't like the reactions. I have heard it is similar in south america but I haven't been there more than for a few days in Galapagos, so somebody can correct me / inform me on that.
    Don't worry, there will always be someone you can point to as "the enemy".
    As a Canadian I'm somewhat sympathetic to this view. Here we pride ourselves on cultural and religious freedom, so for the most part people don't care what you do, just don't make your shit public.

    And yet at the same time it is a real political battle, with real consequences. For example, six years ago my Aunt was dying of cancer but assisted suicide was unavailable to her because religion. She had to sit in a hospital room and slowly suffocate for four days because religion.

    And the reason these types of beliefs persist is because Christianity as an organization is vested in them. And so toward that end they most certainly are an enemy of social progress.

  9. Top | #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheerful Charlie View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    Yes
    You won. Or at the very least achieved a nil-all-draw. #post_atheism
    And so your 'on-trend' counter-culture boldness has passed its shelf life use-by date.
    So 2008

    Now, get on with your life. Tic toc. Tic toc.
    It certainly has where I live (Toronto area). The bible pushers were never huge here though. I've heard it was also never huge in Australia? Is that true? Has it also died down significantly in the bible belt?
    Down here in Texas, Buckle of the Bible Belt, Bible thumping fundies are still rampant and numerous. Our State Board Of Education is larded with creationists peddling superstition. Every time we have to consider new school textbooks, we have to battle them tooth and nail to prevent them from forcing creationism into the schools, or peddling faux history text books on the children of Texas. Women's health issues supporters have to battle far right fundy supported politicians 24/7. Climate change is a dirty set of words to many who are soaked in fundamentalist Bible literalism. Deep in the heart of savage America, militant anti-intellectualism marches on.
    Yea if by 'we won' he means that atheism is accepted in an incredibly small part of the world, then sure.

    The globe:



    Here's Canada:



    I expect that, in Canada at least, it will change significantly over the next few generations.

  10. Top | #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    ...the fake priest closet atheists who can be 'good without God'
    Which fake priests are saying this?
    Do human beings have free will? I can't decide.

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