Page 22 of 27 FirstFirst ... 122021222324 ... LastLast
Results 211 to 220 of 267

Thread: The Case For Christ - A defence of Lee Strobel's 1998 apologetic book

  1. Top | #211
    Formerly Joedad
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    PA USA
    Posts
    4,516
    Archived
    5,039
    Total Posts
    9,555
    Rep Power
    72
    Quote Originally Posted by James Brown View Post
    Catherine Heszer, Professor of Jewish Studies at the University of London, has estimated that the literacy rate of Palestine in the 1st century was about 3 percent.

    I never met a person who was illiterate until I was 26 and living in the south. There were three men on my crew that could neither read nor write. They were all married adults with children and had never left their county of birth.

    In another southern state I met the wife of a workmate who was illiterate. One day she found herself on the interstate and didn't know what to do. She was lost and drove two-hundred miles before pulling off and calling her husband who after figuring out where she was told her to stay there and that he would drive to her.

    Was Jesus literate? How do we know if he was? How did he become literate if he was? Shall we make up some more stuff about Jesus so we can make him be literate?

  2. Top | #212
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    seattle
    Posts
    3,782
    Rep Power
    9
    Quote Originally Posted by James Brown View Post
    Catherine Heszer, Professor of Jewish Studies at the University of London, has estimated that the literacy rate of Palestine in the 1st century was about 3 percent.

    Only young men from wealthy families could read and study the Torah, and in 1st-century Palestine very few families were wealthy. We might as well say that today, young men and women enter medical school to become brain surgeons, so the majority of people are qualified to remove brain tumors.

    A tax collector in ancient times was not like today's IRS agent with a CPA. Matthew was more of a toll-booth collector, and one merely need to be able to perform simple counting and making change to do that. When Matthew met Jesus, he was sitting at his toll booth (Matthew 9:9). Lots more about Matthew here.

    Being fishermen does not mean "running a fishing business" which invokes today's imagery of keeping detailed records and reading complicated regulatory papers. It means getting in a boat, netting fish, carrying it back to a market, and selling it to others. You imagine Peter and James were captains of industry? Peter and John admit outright in the Book of Acts that they were unlettered.

    When I was a Christian, I was told that part of Jesus' appeal was that he spent his time with the poor, the downtrodden, the lowest classes of people. But if we need Jesus to move among the circles of the wealthy elites in order to build up our case that Christianity is authentic, that's fine too. But it can't be supported biblically.
    Great summary. I'd say it was the same in Christian Europe under the RCC. Few people could read the bible let alone understand it. The average person went to church and heard Latin.

  3. Top | #213
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    3,468
    Rep Power
    15
    Quote Originally Posted by James Brown View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    Literacy tom the point of writing the gospels was not common. People did not have notebooks and pencils.

    The people JC was said to hang around with were not the educated Jewish elite.
    Jewish men, from a young age, regularly went to synagogues and read from and studied the Torah. You think they were illiterate?

    Matthew Levi was a tax collector. Think he couldn't read his own accounting records?

    Peter and James and John ran a fishing business. Zebedee was wealthy and occasionally held the position as acting High Priest.

    These are not ignorant peasants.
    Catherine Heszer, Professor of Jewish Studies at the University of London, has estimated that the literacy rate of Palestine in the 1st century was about 3 percent.

    Only young men from wealthy families could read and study the Torah, and in 1st-century Palestine very few families were wealthy.
    OK.
    So the New Testament writers were literate AND wealthy.

    Quote Originally Posted by James Brown View Post

    A tax collector in ancient times was not like today's IRS agent with a CPA. Matthew was more of a toll-booth collector, and one merely need to be able to perform simple counting and making change to do that.
    You're making that up.
    What next? Judas Iscariot wasn't good with money?

    Quote Originally Posted by James Brown View Post
    When Matthew met Jesus, he was sitting at his toll booth (Matthew 9:9). Lots more about Matthew here.
    Speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by James Brown View Post
    Being fishermen does not mean "running a fishing business" which invokes today's imagery of keeping detailed records and reading complicated regulatory papers. It means getting in a boat, netting fish, carrying it back to a market, and selling it to others. You imagine Peter and James were captains of industry?
    You imagine that they weren't.
    Was Jesus' father Joseph a self-employed business man (carpentry)?

    Quote Originally Posted by James Brown View Post
    Peter and John admit outright in the Book of Acts that they were unlettered.
    In which alphabet?

    Quote Originally Posted by James Brown View Post
    When I was a Christian, I was told that part of Jesus' appeal was that he spent his time with the poor, the downtrodden, the lowest classes of people.
    Part of Jesus' appeal. Part of how He spent His time.
    He also spent a good deal of time with wealthy educated people like Nicodemus and Joanna ans Susanna and Chusa and Joseph of Arimathea, and Zacchaeus. Jesus had no trouble calling upon wealthy supporters to provide an all expenses paid upper room Passover meal.

    Quote Originally Posted by James Brown
    But if we need Jesus to move among the circles of the wealthy elites in order to build up our case that Christianity is authentic, that's fine too.
    You're the one saying only wealthy, literate, upper class Jews could have written the Gospels.

    But it can't be supported biblically.
    There's ample support for Jesus' supporters and disciples being literate.

  4. Top | #214
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Between two cities
    Posts
    1,704
    Archived
    56
    Total Posts
    1,760
    Rep Power
    20
    Kudos Lion (rep given) still engaging discussion , doing well keeping up , responding with the many posts.

  5. Top | #215
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,312
    Rep Power
    8
    Quote Originally Posted by Learner View Post
    Kudos Lion (rep given) still engaging discussion , doing well keeping up , responding with the many posts.
    And all of it evasive bullshit that never addresses the fact that it’s still just hearsay. What he’s desperately trying to do is establish that it’s reliable, as if that makes any difference. They were literate and rich and “elite” therefore their claims of magic can be trusted, therefore it’s all real. Which, of course, is utter nonsense.

    Especially since he keeps shooting himself in the foot by stipulating that that we can remove the claims of magic, which are the only claims that matter.

  6. Top | #216
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Layton, UT
    Posts
    996
    Rep Power
    6
    Quote Originally Posted by Koyaanisqatsi View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Learner View Post
    Kudos Lion (rep given) still engaging discussion , doing well keeping up , responding with the many posts.
    And all of it evasive bullshit that never addresses the fact that it’s still just hearsay.
    Kudos Koy (rep given) for continuing to call a spade a fucking shovel.

  7. Top | #217
    Elder Contributor Keith&Co.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Far Western Mass
    Posts
    14,363
    Archived
    24,500
    Total Posts
    38,863
    Rep Power
    69
    Quote Originally Posted by Worldtraveller View Post
    Kudos Koy (rep given) for continuing to call a spade a fucking shovel.
    Eh.
    When you call it a manually operated, human-powered, bovine fecal matter relocation device, it's still a bullshit shovel.

  8. Top | #218
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Between two cities
    Posts
    1,704
    Archived
    56
    Total Posts
    1,760
    Rep Power
    20
    Quote Originally Posted by Koyaanisqatsi View Post

    And all of it evasive bullshit that never addresses the fact that it’s still just hearsay. What he’s desperately trying to do is establish that it’s reliable, as if that makes any difference. They were literate and rich and “elite” therefore their claims of magic can be trusted, therefore it’s all real. Which, of course, is utter nonsense.

    Especially since he keeps shooting himself in the foot by stipulating that that we can remove the claims of magic, which are the only claims that matter.
    I don't agree about that, but IMO, I don't think we need further a new debate about Lion's so-called character , you should perhaps just discuss according to what's on the OP .

    (unless you think it benefits you ... argumentus-tacticalus-thingybob )
    Last edited by Learner; 02-11-2019 at 07:31 PM.

  9. Top | #219
    Formerly Joedad
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    PA USA
    Posts
    4,516
    Archived
    5,039
    Total Posts
    9,555
    Rep Power
    72
    We're evil.

    A spaceman died for us.

    We're redeemed.

    Hallelujah.

    Send me your money.

    Lee Strobel

  10. Top | #220
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Between two cities
    Posts
    1,704
    Archived
    56
    Total Posts
    1,760
    Rep Power
    20
    Quote Originally Posted by T.G.G. Moogly View Post
    We're evil.

    A spaceman died for us.

    We're redeemed.

    Hallelujah.

    Send me your money.

    Lee Strobel

    A spaceman did not die for us.

    We're not redeemed.

    No Hallelujahs.

    Send me your money.


    (Case against Christ, The God delusion, Caesars Messiah and many more)

    Either way ... religion for and against , can make money. (Im in the wrong business)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •