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Thread: The Case For Christ - A defence of Lee Strobel's 1998 apologetic book

  1. Top | #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    Lee Strobel. A man of integrity.
    When his haters call him a 'liar' it's like they think they can prove that chocolate is a better flavour than strawberry. Or that dogs are better pets than cats.
    As I noted in my Tour de Force on the resurrection, the biggest problem with Jesus, the crucifixion, and subsequent resurrection is that while it was a miracle that looks interesting at the surface, it suffers from serious problems of inadequacy. The greatest miracle to ever happened was witnessed by almost no one and influenced almost nothing. There was a rapture moment available during the crucifixion that'd literally put the fear of god into the witnesses (if there were any... witnesses or crucifixion). No... instead of disappearing from the cross... Jesus decides to disappear in the dark... away from anyone.

    Joan of Arc had a much much much bigger (well, anything is bigger than nothing) viable and provable effect in France.

    So it does beg one to ask, why perform such a grand miracle to achieve very little. It is like when God starts really caring about freeing the Hebrews in Egypt. Do they get Egypt after rebelling and taking over? Nope.

    How wondrous!
    Last edited by Jimmy Higgins; 12-05-2019 at 02:37 PM.

  2. Top | #272
    Veteran Member James Brown's Avatar
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    The evidence that something miraculous happened is that someone said that something miraculous happened.

    There you go.

  3. Top | #273
    Fair dinkum thinkum bilby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    Lee Strobel. A man of integrity.
    When his haters call him a 'liar' it's like they think they can prove that chocolate is a better flavour than strawberry. Or that dogs are better pets than cats.
    Yeah, well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

    If there were no facts, just opinions, then you would be stupid to make the claim that calling Strobel a liar was akin to saying that chocolate is a better flavour than strawberry.

    But there are facts, so instead you are both stupid AND wrong.

    You appear to be labouring under the delusion that reasoned thought can be effectively achieved without ever learning how to do it; But like most skills, it in fact requires a certain bare minimum level of education and understanding before you can do it without looking like a total numpty.

    I strongly recommend that you learn how to think, before continuing to make a clown of yourself by attempting to do so while clearly incompetent.

  4. Top | #274
    Super Moderator Atheos's Avatar
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    When people defend liars like Lee Strobel and call him a man of integrity it's like they are using some heretofore unknown meaning of the word "integrity."

    I'm old enough to remember when "bad" didn't mean "good." I can roll with the flow.

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    Veteran Member Lion IRC's Avatar
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    What bilby is saying is that the liar accusations against Strobel should be confined to demonstrable facts and counter-factuals - claims which can be empirically proven.

    I agree.

    When Strobel says there are over 5000 Greek manuscripts of the New Testament in existence that's either true or false.
    When Strobel says 5000 unparalleled in other equivalent ancient historical documents that's either true or false.

    Now obviously, Strobel wants to make a cumulative case for the minimal facts about the Crucifixion and his belief that Jesus' Resurection from the grave is the most plausible explanation of those facts - ahead of other alternative theories. But nowhere does Strobel present opinions as facts.

  6. Top | #276
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    Religious magic isn't a theory.

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    Contributor Cheerful Charlie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    What bilby is saying is that the liar accusations against Strobel should be confined to demonstrable facts and counter-factuals - claims which can be empirically proven.

    I agree.

    When Strobel says there are over 5000 Greek manuscripts of the New Testament in existence that's either true or false.
    When Strobel says 5000 unparalleled in other equivalent ancient historical documents that's either true or false.

    Now obviously, Strobel wants to make a cumulative case for the minimal facts about the Crucifixion and his belief that Jesus' Resurection from the grave is the most plausible explanation of those facts - ahead of other alternative theories. But nowhere does Strobel present opinions as facts.
    It is true there are in fact many NT documents in existence. And the vast majority were written centuries after the supposed happenings of the gospels. Most are lectionaries, collections of favorite verses for use in sermons. The other that are not lectionaries are copies of copies of documents written a century or so after the facts. Almost no two copies of the gospels agree with each other, there are many variations.

    This is a hand wave argument from Strobel and others of his ilk. It all sounds impressive to the less sophisticated reader, but is utterly beside the point. The Gospels contradict each other wildly and cannot be true or written by eyewitnesses or anybody who knew anything worth knowing.
    Cheerful Charlie

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    What bilby is saying is that the liar accusations against Strobel should be confined to demonstrable facts and counter-factuals - claims which can be empirically proven.

    I agree.

    When Strobel says there are over 5000 Greek manuscripts of the New Testament in existence that's either true or false.
    When Strobel says 5000 unparalleled in other equivalent ancient historical documents that's either true or false.
    Firstly, there seems little evidence to suggest the NT doesn't exist. It is the alleged events in the first four books that are in question.

  9. Top | #279
    Veteran Member funinspace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    What bilby is saying is that the liar accusations against Strobel should be confined to demonstrable facts and counter-factuals - claims which can be empirically proven.

    I agree.

    When Strobel says there are over 5000 Greek manuscripts of the New Testament in existence that's either true or false.
    When Strobel says 5000 unparalleled in other equivalent ancient historical documents that's either true or false.
    Can one deceive without saying something that is directly false?

    https://www.biblestudytools.com/topi...-about-deceit/

  10. Top | #280
    Super Moderator Atheos's Avatar
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    Indeed, one of the most fundamental skills of a good lawyer is the ability to twist facts, suppress evidence and use manipulative language in order to support a proposition. The justice system is replete with lawyers who know their client is guilty yet do their job well enough to get an acquittal (or vice versa from the D.A.'s side). Strobel does all of these in "Case For Christ."

    Manipulative language: "Chapter 1 - Eyewitness Testimony" Strobel is well aware of what is considered an eyewitness. It is a known individual who swears that their testimony is the truth or a written statement with a clear chain of custody. Anything else will be objected to by the opposing side as "Hearsay." And any judge worth the honor of sitting on the bench will uphold the objection. The "Gospels" are not eyewitness in any sense of the word. We have no reason to believe these books were written by the people after whom they are traditionally named, and it is clear that whoever wrote them was extremely unlikely to have been an actual eyewitness. But in "Case For Christ" there is no opposing lawyer to object, nor is there an impartial judge to sustain. It's tripe.

    And this is just the tip of the iceberg. This entire book is filled with manipulative language, from the gratuitous ass-kissing Strobel does extolling the virtues and credentials of his witnesses to the summary dismissal of (named but never interviewed) dissenting scholars as hacks who know little about the subject matter they're attacking, and who are only motivated by selfish desires to live in sin and denial of Jeeeeeeeeesus.

    Suppression of evidence: Never once in the entire book does Strobel bother to interview anyone who has a dissenting viewpoint. He never presents well-known counter evidence such as the lack of contemporary corroboration of Herod's "Slaughter of the Innocents," the bullshit Quirinius census that required people to travel to the lands of their ancestors, or even ... well ... any of the remarkable events described in these narratives. The claim that these extraordinary events occurred, yet not one secular historian noticed or made any remark about any of it is a silence that is absolutely deafening. But we can't have any of that in Strobel's "hard nosed investigation of the facts," can we?

    Twisting of facts: As mentioned above, appealing to the fact that there are thousands of copies of these stories speaks to nothing other than the popularity of the stories. It has nothing to do with whether or not the stories contain factual information. The fact that there are millions of copies of Gone With The Wind doesn't prove that Scarlet O'Hara and Rhett Butler were real.

    In short, Strobel is a liar, liar with pants on fire. It's just that simple.

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