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Thread: Human nature

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    Human nature

    What is the nature of humans?

    Premise: Humans are greedy self-centered beings that only want comfort and do not care that much about others

    Chomsky: That is a creation of the advertising industry. It is what advertisers turn children into. At one time the working class was better read than the aristocracy.


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    The idea is that the nature of many humans today is a creation of the advertising industry.

    The greedy self obsessed consumer is not what humans strive to be. It is not a natural state.

    It is what a bombardment of indoctrination beginning with the cartoons children watch creates over time.

    The idea is humanity could be so much more than it is.

    And nothing about human nature would have to change.

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    Chomsky shmomsky.

    All's you have to do is look at other species. Higher level critters are almost exclusively hierarchal with combat common to settle disputes. Chimps throw feces in disputes. Male territorial critters like bears.

    Part of it is generic, part learned social behavior. Our aversion to nudity to the point of limiting women from breast feeding in public is learned behavior.

    That comes from our imagination, articulate language, and ability to sway people.

    IMO communism failed in Russia and China in part because it stifled a natural human need for competition . Our free market system allows for completion within limits. Hierarchies naturally evolve.

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    I couldn't disagree more.

    Human hierarchies don't just form. Except the child/parent hierarchy where the parent is looking after a child that does not know better and can hurt themselves. The hierarchy is acceptable when the parent is looking after the best interest of the child. It is not acceptable to have a hierarchy with the purpose of one person profiting off the labor of another.

    Human hierarchies are deliberately created to trap helpless others within them.

    The monarchy does not just form as an act of nature.

    That is why it can easily be replaced with something else.

    The hierarchies in the workplace could just as easily be replaced. And society would benefit just as it benefits from democracy over monarchy in government.

    But the video was about advertising creating greedy self-centered perpetually childlike consumers who gain emotional comfort by buying things they don't need.

    It is as if you did not even watch it.

    When somebody bad mouths Chomsky they show themselves to be a fool.

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    Human hierarchies form because, in part, dominant individuals are able to gain from their makeup and natural assets. Successful business people become richer than the workers they employ, have more influence in government, buy mansions on the hill, gated communities, etc.

    Power, privilege and wealth drives division, so we end up with the haves, the have not's, those with great power and others experiencing powerlessness.

    Those in power being reluctant to relinquish their gains are not likely to embrace change that threatens their own lavish lifestyles.
    Last edited by DBT; 02-27-2019 at 05:05 AM.

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    If we just trace our path to being human we will find change in social size and texture is the dominant attribute. From pairs to few to several to groups to clans to tribes to interlocking tribers to multi-interlocking tribes to communities to principalities to nations to partial continental to continental to multiple continental unions to .... Such changes negate individual selfish impulses over generalizations to mere violent incidental exceptions.

    So far we've managed to establish some pretty big groupings even though they do tend to follow cycles where self interest tends to break them down to at least the tribal level only to see a rise to even more universal social commerce. Communication is replacing personal imperatives as primary driver for human social evolution over the past 70 thousand or so years.

    True there is a range of selfishness within each of us that is capable of bringing society to a sudden stop. So far the evidence is that humans are becoming more socially organized in cooperative unions as time passes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Human hierarchies form because, in part, dominant individuals are able to gain from their makeup and natural assets. Successful business people become richer than the workers they employ, have more influence in government, buy mansions on the hill, gated communities, etc.

    Power, privilege and wealth drives division, so we end up with the haves, the have not's, those with great power and others experiencing powerlessness.

    Those in power being reluctant to relinquish their gains are not likely to embrace change that threatens their own lavish lifestyles.
    Hierarchies don't just form.

    And economic hierarchies have nothing to do with naturally dominant people.

    They have to do with most being in a state of need and being forced by circumstances to work for another person to survive.

    When we look at natural behavior, like normal humans in high school we see that social clicks do form naturally but no power hierarchies form.

    Power hierarchies are unnatural and dehumanizing.

    But none of this addresses the point of the thread which is about the way humans are programmed by a constant onslaught of very carefully crafted messaging to become a sick greedy self-centered child for life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Human hierarchies form because, in part, dominant individuals are able to gain from their makeup and natural assets. Successful business people become richer than the workers they employ, have more influence in government, buy mansions on the hill, gated communities, etc.

    Power, privilege and wealth drives division, so we end up with the haves, the have not's, those with great power and others experiencing powerlessness.

    Those in power being reluctant to relinquish their gains are not likely to embrace change that threatens their own lavish lifestyles.
    Hierarchies don't just form.

    And economic hierarchies have nothing to do with naturally dominant people.

    They have to do with most being in a state of need and being forced by circumstances to work for another person to survive.

    When we look at natural behavior, like normal humans in high school we see that social clicks do form naturally but no power hierarchies form.

    Power hierarchies are unnatural and dehumanizing.

    But none of this addresses the point of the thread which is about the way humans are programmed by a constant onslaught of very carefully crafted messaging to become a sick greedy self-centered child for life.
    When you say “to” in “crafted to become”, you convey intent and purpose as if if to answer why and explain motive. There is a difference between an incidental occurrence that is a byproduct of our actions and full fledged intent to bring about what you speak of.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fast View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Human hierarchies form because, in part, dominant individuals are able to gain from their makeup and natural assets. Successful business people become richer than the workers they employ, have more influence in government, buy mansions on the hill, gated communities, etc.

    Power, privilege and wealth drives division, so we end up with the haves, the have not's, those with great power and others experiencing powerlessness.

    Those in power being reluctant to relinquish their gains are not likely to embrace change that threatens their own lavish lifestyles.
    Hierarchies don't just form.

    And economic hierarchies have nothing to do with naturally dominant people.

    They have to do with most being in a state of need and being forced by circumstances to work for another person to survive.

    When we look at natural behavior, like normal humans in high school we see that social clicks do form naturally but no power hierarchies form.

    Power hierarchies are unnatural and dehumanizing.

    But none of this addresses the point of the thread which is about the way humans are programmed by a constant onslaught of very carefully crafted messaging to become a sick greedy self-centered child for life.
    When you say “to” in “crafted to become”, you convey intent and purpose as if if to answer why and explain motive. There is a difference between an incidental occurrence that is a byproduct of our actions and full fledged intent to bring about what you speak of.
    Did you watch the video?

    I am expressing ideas from Chomsky.

    And he is definitely attributing intent to the people creating the messaging.

    What intent do you think exists in trying to elicit "nagging" behavior in children?

    What does most advertising have to do with making a rational choice?

    It is an education in making bad emotional decisions. A constant ubiquitous unrelenting education. And it is there because it works.

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    Genetic and social influences developed because it affected group survival. There are theories why Neanderthals died out.

    From a show on gorillas. A male and female leave the group in different directions, rendvous, have sex, and return avoiding the eye of alpha male.

    There are male chimps that submit to ritual humping to signify loosing a dispute.

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