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Thread: Fine-Tuning Argument vs Argument From Miracles

  1. Top | #741
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atheos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by atrib View Post
    Also according to Lumpy:
    1. If I write a story and someone makes 10 copies of it, the story now has 11 credible sources.
    2. Hearsay from anonymous strangers on the street constitute better evidence than the sworn testimony of known individuals.
    and so on.
    That is what you are up against.
    I don't agree with this. Lumpenproletariat's assessment of credible evidence begins with not knowing who wrote the original story. If we know you wrote it, it's not anonymous.

    Lumpenproletariat's formula:
    1. If someone claims he's in contact with a disembodied individual who was once a human being but gives no time frame or details about where or when that person lived we have (1) credible source.
    2. If someone else (or some group of people, but we have no idea who) writes a story placing this figure into a historical setting (like Margaret Mitchell did with Scarlett O'Hara and Rhett Butler) and 3 other people (or groups, none of whom we know) plagiarize and slightly alter the story while adding a B29 bomber and a nuclear weapon to the American Civil War), we have 4(5) credible sources.

    For Point 1 in my post:
    1. If I write a story and someone makes 10 copies of it, the story now has 11 credible sources.
    This is something Lumpy has stated, or strongly implied in his posts, as you acknowledge in your post. Note that I did not say that the copies had to be perfect reproductions of the original. Where is the disagreement?

    For Point 2:
    2. Hearsay from anonymous strangers on the street constitute better evidence than the sworn testimony of known individuals.
    and so on.
    This is something he has stated in an older post. This was with reference to eyewitness testimony attesting to Joseph Smith performing miracles. Lumpy stated that the eyewitness testimony was suspect because the observers/witnesses could have been biased, but that same bias could not be attributed to hearsay accounts from strangers on the street. Where is the disagreement?

  2. Top | #742
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    Kudos to the logic Lumpy, post #739

    1 rep.

  3. Top | #743
    Elder Contributor Keith&Co.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lumpenproletariat View Post

    You're not describing Christ-believers who take the miracle acts of Jesus in the Gospels as basic. Believing something from the 1st-century documents reporting it as actual events has nothing to do with the believer's imagination.
    No, Lumpy, it has everything to do with your imagination.
    If it was just you, rationally weighing every miracle story out there, you would be either a Greco-Roman-Egyptian-Christain-Mormon-Catholic-Methodist-Scientologist-Shinto-Mithrantist (ad infinitum) or an atheist.

    Your imagination comes into play when you pick and choose which stories to

    dismiss for valid reasons like the Mormon miracles, because you find the testimony suspicious:

    dismiss for invalid reasons, like the Mormon miracles, a few years ago when you insitsted that there were no such things, because you never heard of them;

    and the convoluted validation claims you have imginatively invented for holding the Jesus miracles to be true, such as the pure fiction that there is a magic window of time where it is too early for chroniclers to lie, but not late enough for chroniclers to mythologize.


    All your imagination, Lumpy. Working just like any believer with a similar carefully curated faith in Buddha, Zeus, Allah, Zombie Jesus, Lich Jesus, or Amateratsu.

  4. Top | #744
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    Quote Originally Posted by Learner View Post
    Kudos to the logic Lumpy, post #739
    You mean, this "logic":

    Quote Originally Posted by Lumpenproletariat View Post
    Even if those events are fictitious, they...are an input from the real world, from evidence, like other reported facts of history.
    You'll need a helluva lot more beer to make that idiocy seem in any way logical.

  5. Top | #745
    Elder Contributor Keith&Co.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koyaanisqatsi View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Learner View Post
    Kudos to the logic Lumpy, post #739
    You mean, this "logic":

    Quote Originally Posted by Lumpenproletariat View Post
    Even if those events are fictitious, they...are an input from the real world, from evidence, like other reported facts of history.
    You'll need a helluva lot more beer to make that idiocy seem in any way logical.
    Well, He works backwards from the conclusion. He likes the conclusion, so however it was reached must be acceptable logic.

  6. Top | #746
    Super Moderator Atheos's Avatar
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    What the hell?!? You people still actually read that stuff?

    I'm an old man. Don't have much time left and damn sure ain't going to waste anymore of it on that junk.

  7. Top | #747
    Elder Contributor Keith&Co.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atheos View Post
    What the hell?!? You people still actually read that stuff?
    Not all of it.

    Usually, not any of it, unless someone quotes it.

    I got curious about Learner's compliment on logic.

    I skim until I find something stupid... Don't even have to start at the beginning.
    There may be no meaning to this world, but that does not mean that what I do is meaningless.
    -Mark Lawrence

  8. Top | #748
    Veteran Member skepticalbip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith&Co. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Atheos View Post
    What the hell?!? You people still actually read that stuff?
    Not all of it.

    Usually, not any of it, unless someone quotes it.

    I got curious about Learner's compliment on logic.

    I skim until I find something stupid... Don't even have to start at the beginning.
    If that is all you are looking for then you don't have to read very far... I usually find it in the header he generally uses to open his walls of text.

  9. Top | #749
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koyaanisqatsi View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Learner View Post
    Kudos to the logic Lumpy, post #739
    You mean, this "logic":

    Quote Originally Posted by Lumpenproletariat View Post
    Even if those events are fictitious, they...are an input from the real world, from evidence, like other reported facts of history.
    You'll need a helluva lot more beer to make that idiocy seem in any way logical.
    Dragons have scales, feet, wings, claws, eyes, etc. All these things are real so dragons are real too.

    See how easy?

  10. Top | #750
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    Never mind.

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