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Thread: Fine-Tuning Argument vs Argument From Miracles

  1. Top | #71
    Formerly Joedad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    Yes, I can imagine a better one.
    A universe where evil (sin) is eventually defeated.
    I'm sure we can get there eventually.
    What does "defeated" mean in this case?
    I think we both know what it means in this case. Like all of religious gobblygook it means whatever you want it to mean.

  2. Top | #72
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    I guess it would mean that god uses climate change to flood us again, saving the Trumps in a barge (prefab, because that bunch won't build anything or pay anyone to do it for them.) Then he (god) can create a new race without the sin-loving nature he gave the earlier tribe. Hold on, there's still room for drama, since he saved the Trumps. Everything is now set up for a Book of Mormon-style pig rumble between prototypical sinless people and the inbreeding orange race of Trumps. That should provide all the drama necessary for a Newer Testament.

  3. Top | #73
    Senior Member Brian63's Avatar
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    Well apparently our universe was fine-tuned, but God is just incompetent at it:

    God Really Dreading Visit From Older Brother Who Made Much More Successful Cosmos

  4. Top | #74
    Elder Contributor Keith&Co.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    Scientists and philosophers and mathematicians seem to find existence and the universe in which we exist interesting enough. You agree that it's beautiful and interesting.
    When I was about 12, we drove to Butte, Montana for Xmas.

    Going up through the Rockies, I loved the view of the drifting snow. Soft, sparkly, cool patterns that came and went in an instant, reversing when the wind changed... I thought it was beautiful.
    I started to mention how beautiful it looked when my dad started cursing. See, he was trying to drive through those snow drifts, trying to keep a family of four and a Toyota Corolla from sliding off the road, or driving off the road where the snow hid the shoulder, and all of us dying of impact on the rocks below, or drowning if we made it all the way down to the river.
    Dad went off for a little bit about how we should have been packed and ready when he wanted to go, it'd still be daylight when we got to that stretch of road, between the cliffs and the river.

    So, I shut the fuck up about how beautiful the snowdrifts were....

    An important lesson for a developing mind. Beauty is subjective. Seeing beauty is a function of the human mind, NOT necessarily the sign of an artist. If the universe is interesting, that's also subjective. NOT proof of a creator.

    And if it IS taken as evidence of a conscious effort, then bone cancer in kids must also be taken as a conscious element of design...

  5. Top | #75
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian63 View Post
    Well apparently our universe was fine-tuned, but God is just incompetent at it:

    God Really Dreading Visit From Older Brother Who Made Much More Successful Cosmos
    Reminds me of the Paiute story about Coyote and Wolf. The Onion is not the first institution to wonder whether we might be in the, uh, discount universe.

  6. Top | #76
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    The conclusion to these kinds of arguments is that by observation it is obvious that there must be a creator of some sort.

    'The unversed I see could not possibly come about without a creator, therefore there is a creator'.. All the arguments are typically bootstrapping, the conclusion drives the premise.

  7. Top | #77
    Veteran Member Treedbear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    The conclusion to these kinds of arguments is that by observation it is obvious that there must be a creator of some sort. ...
    You must mean the kinds of arguments that start with the premise that there must be a creator or some other such reason why a particular kind of outcome would be favorable. Such as life and/or life as we know it. How can anyone expect an objective assessment when the assumptions are biased from the get-go?

  8. Top | #78
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    In the beginning the universe was created by God because it was so simplistic and simple. When it was determined not to be so simple, the fine-tuning argument was born.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    STARS DIED FOR US!!!!!
    It really is the most poetic thing I know about physics.
    ...I'm getting all choked up.
    This is the trolling thing people talk about.

  9. Top | #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treedbear View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    The conclusion to these kinds of arguments is that by observation it is obvious that there must be a creator of some sort. ...
    You must mean the kinds of arguments that start with the premise that there must be a creator or some other such reason why a particular kind of outcome would be favorable. Such as life and/or life as we know it. How can anyone expect an objective assessment when the assumptions are biased from the get-go?
    Nope/ I mean that the type of the argument is what I call bootstrapping. The conclusion drives the premise.

    The Teleological Argument? The universe can not possibly exist with god, therefore god exists.

  10. Top | #80
    Elder Contributor Keith&Co.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    The Teleological Argument? The universe can not possibly exist with god,
    Without?

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