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Thread: Fine-Tuning Argument vs Argument From Miracles

  1. Top | #681
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    A creationist I knew pointed out the window and said It is obvious a giod created it all!'. A variation of 'the universe can not possibly exist without a god, therefore god exists'.

    Fine tuning says physical constants leads to the conclusion the universe was designed, therefore god exists. It is similar to the watchmaker arument. You find a watch and you have never seen one. You conclude with its c omplexity it could not have come to be to be by a natural process, therefore there must be a watchmaker. The compexity of the universe that allows life on Earth implies a creator, god.

    Christians see miracles in their daily lives all the time. They pray for money and find a twenty dollar bill on the sidewalk. They pray and see a result in their lives. I pray and I feel results therefor god exists.

    I knew a Christian who had an echocardiogram that shoed very thin walls in his heart. Wen they opened him up it was not nearly as bad as thought. He considered an act f god. I called it experimental variation.

  2. Top | #682
    Fair dinkum thinkum bilby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fromderinside View Post
    Why does everyone believe those who hold their breath turn blue?

    Red seems more likely donchathink.

    Probably has something to do with fear of a devil?
    Purple, maybe. Or blue. But not red - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanosis

  3. Top | #683
    Elder Contributor Keith&Co.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    It is similar to the watchmaker arument. You find a watch and you have never seen one. You conclude with its c omplexity it could not have come to be to be by a natural process, therefore there must be a watchmaker. The compexity of the universe that allows life on Earth implies a creator, god.
    Aye, there's the rub.
    The watch is complex, and unlike anything in Nature, therefore an artifact.
    Then Scotty reverses polarity on the sensors, and the same observer compares the same Nature and the same watchand finds that Nature is like the watch which proves Nature is an artifact, but that conclusion is based on the watch necessarily being an artifact because it != Nature, which our conclusion disagrees with, so our observation is disprovenl and our conclusion must be abandoned, which takes away the disproof of our initial observation, so that stands, the watch is an artifact again, but we dare not compare it to nature too many times or it may turn out to be a seed.
    Or a tumor.
    There may be no meaning to this world, but that does not mean that what I do is meaningless.
    -Mark Lawrence

  4. Top | #684
    Senior Member OLDMAN's Avatar
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    Well, as Dawkins has stated...there is nothing about the universe that is particularly fine tuned to support life. Black holes, exploding stars, radiation up the ass, and the cold...holy fuck it's cold. Well, maybe Dawkins didn't say those words exactly. But you get the gist.

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    Fair dinkum thinkum bilby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OLDMAN View Post
    Well, as Dawkins has stated...there is nothing about the universe that is particularly fine tuned to support life. Black holes, exploding stars, radiation up the ass, and the cold...holy fuck it's cold. Well, maybe Dawkins didn't say those words exactly. But you get the gist.
    Universe. Lacks atmosphere, not enough of it seems to (be) matter. The tiny amount of it that does manage to be interesting isn't sufficient to make up for the gaping voids. One star (out of 1024). Rated R18+ (violence, sex, nudity, drug use, language, adult themes).

  6. Top | #686
    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bilby View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by fromderinside View Post
    Why does everyone believe those who hold their breath turn blue?

    Red seems more likely donchathink.

    Probably has something to do with fear of a devil?
    Purple, maybe. Or blue. But not red - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanosis
    Geez. I'm in to lower energy results not to expected results. I'm in to hyperbole, significantly lower energy results ........ What could be further from the sun that something red shifted to just less than microwave ........

    Quote Originally Posted by bilby View Post
    ..... (violence, sex, nudity, drug use, language, adult themes).


    That's the spirit,

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    Veteran Member Treedbear's Avatar
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    Take your pick of starting premise on which to base your theory that the universe is fine-tuned:

    1. If it wasn't then I wouldn't exist.
    2. If it wasn't then the human species wouldn't exist.
    3. If it wasn't the Earth wouldn't be suitable for life.
    4. If it wasn't the physical constants wouldn't allow for the formation of elements needed for life.
    5. If it wasn't the physical constants wouldn't allow for matter to coalesce into forms.
    6. If it wasn't then nothing would exist.

    Only the last one has some metaphysical basis for argument. All the others lack objectivity and are therefore irrational and illogical. They all lack context and perspective. They are conclusions without premises. There needs to be something that makes the conclusion important in an objective sense. In other words each of the premises needs to be followed by ", and therefore (what?). There's no actual need to resort to either an intentional God or a many-worlds theory. There's simply no objective reference point from which it can be said that it's good that the universe turned out as it did, or that it was particularly unlikely that it did so.

  8. Top | #688
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    Why does the puddle fit the hole? The hole must have been fine-tuned to the exact measurements of the puddle.

  9. Top | #689
    Super Moderator Atheos's Avatar
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    FTA also defeats itself by positing a creator/life form that needs none of the fine tuning or elements needed for life. If life could exist without the universe then the universe (even a fine-tuned one) is irrelevant.

  10. Top | #690
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atheos View Post
    FTA also defeats itself by positing a creator/life form that needs none of the fine tuning or elements needed for life. If life could exist without the universe then the universe (even a fine-tuned one) is irrelevant.
    That's a pretty powerful argument. I'll have to remember that point. Thank you for sharing.

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