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Thread: Fine-Tuning Argument vs Argument From Miracles

  1. Top | #781
    Cyborg with a Tiara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Learner View Post
    Yes, we believe the evidence of John Smiths existence just as we believe Jesus existed. Did you treat Mormonism with the usual sceptism-method for plagarism from other (biblical) beliefs?
    Did you really just see the question,
    "so you all agree then that Mormonism is true. "

    and you thought a truthful and honest answer was,
    "Yes, we believe the evidence of John Smiths existence "


    You think that is an honest and truthful response to whether Mormonism is true?

  2. Top | #782
    Veteran Member Lion IRC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koyaanisqatsi View Post
    We clearly have differing definitions of what “addressing” constitutes.

    So you, Lion and Learner (and Lump) all agree then that Mormonism is true. After all, in the case of John Smith we have EVIDENCE from the time.
    Mormons? LDS? Yeah, I think I've heard of them.

    Are they the ones who believe in Adam and Eve and Noah and Melchizedek and Job and Abraham and Elijah and Samson and Delilah and Isaiah and Solomon and David and Eleazar and Jeconiah and Moses and Joseph and Mary and Jesus...?

  3. Top | #783
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Koyaanisqatsi View Post
    We clearly have differing definitions of what “addressing” constitutes.

    So you, Lion and Learner (and Lump) all agree then that Mormonism is true. After all, in the case of John Smith we have EVIDENCE from the time.
    Mormons? LDS? Yeah, I think I've heard of them.

    Are they the ones who believe in Adam and Eve and Noah and Melchizedek and Job and Abraham and Elijah and Samson and Delilah and Isaiah and Solomon and David and Eleazar and Jeconiah and Moses and Joseph and Mary and Jesus...?
    Add another dissembler to the list.

    Just keep revealing your true selves boys. Drinks are on the house.

  4. Top | #784
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atheos View Post
    Do you believe the Golden Plates were written in Reformed Egyptian? That Joseph Smith translated them through the power of the Seer's Stone? That God himself directly oversaw the translation process, literally word for word? That because of this the Book of Mormon is the "Most correct book on the earth?" Do you believe the Witness of the Eight? Do you believe that once the Golden Plates had been translated God took them up into Heaven, explaining why we can't take a look at them for ourselves now? Do you believe that Joseph Smith performed miracles of the same magnitude as Jesus?
    I maybe opened to it ... there could be some connection somewhere maybe. I am reminded of the bit where it says in the Christian bible; Satan can appear like an angel and so on. Creating new faiths no doubt - from the biblical viewpoint.
    (Yes I know Mary had a visit from an angel)

    We have much better "evidence" of all these things than exists about the Jesus mythology, yet historians do not accept these things as actual history any more than they accept Jesus walking on the water as actual history, or George Washington tossing a coin across the Potomac as actual history.
    You don't mean the gold plates and miracles of course. Better evidence ( medium method for text) including photos of the time ... I agree.

  5. Top | #785
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhea View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Learner View Post
    Yes, we believe the evidence of John Smiths existence just as we believe Jesus existed. Did you treat Mormonism with the usual sceptism-method for plagarism from other (biblical) beliefs?
    Did you really just see the question,
    "so you all agree then that Mormonism is true. "

    and you thought a truthful and honest answer was,
    "Yes, we believe the evidence of John Smiths existence "


    You think that is an honest and truthful response to whether Mormonism is true?
    What else can they say? There are eyewitness accounts to Joseph Smith "decoding" magic gold tablets using the magic decoder stone he had "found". These people were tasked with recording the texts Smith was reading out, since Smith apparently either could not write, or did so poorly. The evidence that this happened is overwhelming, and the Christians can only wish they had this kind of evidence.

  6. Top | #786
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    Quote Originally Posted by Learner View Post

    I am sort of opened to it ... there could be some connection somewhere maybe. I am reminded of the bit where it says in the Christian bible; Satan can appear like an angel and so on. Creating new faiths no doubt - from the biblical viewpoint.
    How do you know the Gospels were not inspired by Satan? Or that the Book of Mormon was? You don't.

  7. Top | #787
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    Quote Originally Posted by atrib View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Learner View Post

    I am sort of opened to it ... there could be some connection somewhere maybe. I am reminded of the bit where it says in the Christian bible; Satan can appear like an angel and so on. Creating new faiths no doubt - from the biblical viewpoint.
    How do you know the Gospels were not inspired by Satan? Or that the Book of Mormon was? You don't.
    Good point... something to consider regarding the bible- That he (Satan) wouldn't want us to be his followers and stay clear from him, instructed by his own scripture, but we must love God instead. And the Book of Mormon, you are correct.. I don't know.
    Last edited by Learner; 10-21-2019 at 06:59 PM.

  8. Top | #788
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    Quote Originally Posted by atrib View Post
    How do you know the Gospels were not inspired by Satan?
    Or Gozer.
    I like the Gozer scenario.

    Gozer the Gozerian was defeated but not destroyed. Gozer then sent minions to Earth to
    1) destroy all records of his defeat
    2) marginalize the religions of anyone that opposed Gozer
    3) Invent a new religion (or three, or three thousand), which seemed real and powerful (propped up by miracles Gozerians cast in the new god's name), but ultimately posed no threat to Gozer's eventual return.
    Maybe one of the demons listed in someone's scripture is the last surviving reference to the god who defeated Gozer the last time.

  9. Top | #789
    Elder Contributor Keith&Co.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Learner View Post
    instructed by his own scripture, but we must love God
    But a number of religious schisms exist between people who insist they worship the same God, but bitch that the other guy worships God in the wrong way.
    What if they're all incorrect? What if the Devil put JUST ENOUGH truth in the Bible to draw your trust, but enough error or outright lie that you'll never speak the right prayers or make the right sacrifices?
    Or what if Jesus doesn't fit the prophecies for the Messiah? He doesn't. Maybe the whole thing's a con job and when you show up in the afterlife, God will have no choice but to point out that you HAD all the clues, and still fell for the imposter....

  10. Top | #790
    Super Moderator Atheos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Learner View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Atheos View Post
    Do you believe the Golden Plates were written in Reformed Egyptian? That Joseph Smith translated them through the power of the Seer's Stone? That God himself directly oversaw the translation process, literally word for word? That because of this the Book of Mormon is the "Most correct book on the earth?" Do you believe the Witness of the Eight? Do you believe that once the Golden Plates had been translated God took them up into Heaven, explaining why we can't take a look at them for ourselves now? Do you believe that Joseph Smith performed miracles of the same magnitude as Jesus?
    I maybe opened to it ... there could be some connection somewhere maybe. I am reminded of the bit where it says in the Christian bible; Satan can appear like an angel and so on. Creating new faiths no doubt - from the biblical viewpoint.
    (Yes I know Mary had a visit from an angel)

    We have much better "evidence" of all these things than exists about the Jesus mythology, yet historians do not accept these things as actual history any more than they accept Jesus walking on the water as actual history, or George Washington tossing a coin across the Potomac as actual history.
    You don't mean the gold plates and miracles of course. Better evidence ( medium method for text) including photos of the time ... I agree.
    Yes I do mean the gold plates and miracles "of course." We have named, signed witnesses (the Witness of the Eight) who swear that they saw the golden plates and handled them. For the Jesus myth we have anonymous documents that didn't appear until decades after the alleged events happened and appeared 1500 miles away from where they supposedly happened. "A long time ago in a place far, far away, there once was a magic Jew named Jesus."

    The miracles wrought by Joseph Smith were clearly chronicled, again by named writers who claim to have witnessed them. Not anonymous documents written by people who never identify themselves and never claim to have met Jesus themselves, nor claim to have met anyone who talked directly to Jesus.

    The "evidence" for the Mormon claims is better than the evidence for the Jesus myths by many orders of magnitude on all accounts. In spite of this indisputable fact historians still are certain that the Mormon claims are pure mythology.

    That's the problem I have with these long-winded diatribes. Lumpenproletariat dismisses all of this with irrelevant sharpshooter fallacies and then just turns around and repeats the same debunked claims again and again. It doesn't matter how many words he uses to perfume the skunk or how many times he sprays it, it's still going to be a skunk.

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