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Thread: Atheists becoming more vocal and outspoken

  1. Top | #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian63 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    Is the poihnt of thread just debate with no purpose?
    Even if someone disagreed with me on the position, as many here do, why would you read the very OP of the thread and think that this thread exists with no purpose but to debate? Clearly there is a position that I am arguing for. It is a common rhetorical tactic, when you disagree with someone and especially dislike them, to accuse them of arguing without purpose. Just think about whether that accusation is accurate though before actually making the accusation.
    What about your responses is substance to the OP and not just a rhetorical exercise?

    You miss the point. The academic intellectual who takes apart colloquial expressions literally, missing the point of the expression.

    If you play the role of the offended aloof intellectual you will get no sympathy around here.

    Don't throw down the gauntlet unless you intend to do battle.

  2. Top | #152
    Veteran Member Brian63's Avatar
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    Ok.

  3. Top | #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhea View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruth Harris View Post
    So, yes – open, frank, respectful conversation is always welcome. Derogatory statements or attitudes about the person are not, and this applies to both sides. I have defended atheists when people I know say things such as “All atheists are stupid” and have made it very clear that they are completely wrong. I would expect no less from an honest atheist if they heard the same thing about all believers.
    So have you torn out of your bible the passages where it says exactly that? If not, you are not really defending atheists if you still own a bible and listen in a church when they contain bibles that say that. Is it respectful to love a bible that is disrespectful of atheists?


    “The unbeliever is a fool”
    I assume you are referring to Psalm 14:1, where it says “The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God.’” You are probably not going to like what I have to say now – this is the same mistake that a lot of Christians make by trying to read the Bible literally. It actually has nothing to do with basic intelligence.

    According to Jewish tradition, the Psalms were written by King David to his fellow Jews. Rabbinic studies of this Psalm concluded that the intent was to rebuke those Jews who were falling into what they considered heresy – they were not written with the unbeliever or those outside the Jewish faith in mind at all. Christians should therefore read this as being a warning for those believers who are not living in accordance with their faith, to be true to the intent of the original text.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhea View Post
    “Do not be yoked to an unbeliever, because what business does darkness have with light,” etc.
    I assume that you are referring to 2 Corinthians 6:14 “Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?”

    This book is traditionally attributed to Paul and Timothy, and was a letter written to a church in Corinth. This church had a rather troubled existence and was continually in turmoil over one thing or another (sounds rather like the current church, doesn’t it?). The church consisted of converts from Judaism as well as multiple Gentile religions. There were members in this church who wanted to meld their original faith and practice with this new one of Christianity – and this is precisely the point of the first part of that scripture. That was to be forbidden. The only thing to be taught in the church was the new faith.

    It can also be read to mean that believers should not ally themselves with non-believers to the exclusion of fellowship with believers. This is rather common sense; what do you think would happen if a believer associated only with those who did not believe, or those who followed a different faith? The same could be said about atheists who associated only with believers. How long do you think it would take for either to convert if they never heard anything but what those they listened to had to say?

    The third thing that is often mentioned in regard to this verse is believers marrying non-believers. Once again, this seems rather common sense to me. Can you imagine how difficult a marriage would be between a faithful believer and a strong atheist? I find it very hard to imagine a life without continual arguments between them. Who would want to live that way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhea View Post
    “The unbelieve shall perish and be not welcome in heaven.”
    I am sorry, I don’t know where you got this in the Bible. Can you tell me what you are referencing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhea View Post
    If you are willing to see a bible and NOT tear out those pages, then you aren’t really able to claim that you “defended atheists when people I know say things such as “All atheists are stupid” and have made it very clear that they are completely wrong.”

    As long as you tolerate copies of a bible that EXPLICITLY says exactly that, your claim to defend atheists against it is hollow and untrue. Don’t you think?
    No, I do not think I am being untruthful. If I am it is completely unintentional and if you will tell me about it I will happily explain or recant.

    Ruth

  4. Top | #154
    Cyborg with a Tiara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruth Harris View Post
    You are probably not going to like what I have to say now – this is the same mistake that a lot of Christians make by trying to read the Bible literally. It actually has nothing to do with basic intelligence.
    To hold onto unintelligible passages that require controrted explanations to weasel out of the pretty clear insult they deliver is a rather profound indictment of the poor validity of the bible, don’t you think?

    I’ve heard some Christians try to explain away, as you did, the clear words that are used by other christians in far greater numbers to demean, vilify and oppress non-believers.

    So, I say what I said at the beginning. If you honestly want a religion that does not call all atheists fools, criminals, evil and “other,” you need to tear out those pages and preach against them.

    But, since they’ve been in these english version for hundreds of years, and in other language versions even longer, one can quite clearly deiscern what christians like to do with them.

    The difference between what you say and what you do, is what you do. And if you carry around a bible that has these damaging passages, you do a thing; as outlined.

    Yeah, I’ve heard 1 in a hundred chrsitians try to explain to **ME** how it doesn’t mean what it says, it’s just misunderstood. I would prefer if you would come tell me that after you have finished convincing the 99, mmkay? Until then - it means what it means to today’s christians, and what it means to them is how they treat us. And your scholarly disagreement does not actually change that one bit.

    Indeed, when you “defend atheists” to these people you know - do you really think they believe you over their bible? Do they walk away changed and preaching the new love to other hating christians? Or do they nod their heads and go back to the bible that they interpret in plain language.

    (Corrollary: a real “god” would not have so much trouble being understood.)

  5. Top | #155
    Contributor DrZoidberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian63 View Post
    The problem was not that your words are offensive, it is that you are intentionally and unapologetically trying to be offensive, all the while trying to put on a deceitful show that you are just trying to have a civil and friendly conversation. When I write words with the intention of insulting someone, I will not be dishonest and say that I was not. If asked, I will admit that that was the intention. You still do the opposite though, and pretend to want civil and friendly conversation all the while writing out these very uncivil and unfriendly comments. Own your words or retract them. Do not try to deceitfully try to play it both ways though.
    Trying to shift the focus over onto how polite I am won't fix the logical holes in your arguments. I've already said that I have no interest in discussing comparative politeness. I'm guessing that the thing you find offensive is that I don't agree with you. But this is a discussion forum, so tough luck. How about focusing on the problems I'm highlighting rather than your hurt ego?

  6. Top | #156
    Veteran Member Brian63's Avatar
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    Great diagnosis again, DrZoidberg. In that post right there you not only have demonstrated yet again a terrific knack for exposing the logical holes in my stupid viewpoints, but you also have a terrific knack for diagnosing my underlying and psychological and emotional deficiencies for holding those stupid viewpoints. I don't suppose I could get your generous help to set up any kind of therapy or rehah course to help me treat and cure my illnesses, could I? Would you be willing to help someone like me who has been so mean and bullying towards you, when they criticized you for calling them "dishonest" which was unnecessarily inflammatory and false rhetoric way earlier in the thread? Are you do harbor too much ill will towards me to ever be willing to assist me?

    All love.

  7. Top | #157
    Veteran Member Brian63's Avatar
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    In an earlier post there was a brief exchange with DrZoidberg and me:

    If you only focus on the belief in God,…
    Who ever advocated (I certainly never did) that we should “only focus on the belief in God?” Please provide the exact quote and exact reference. If you cannot find it, please at least retract this strawman you are arguing against, repeatedly.
    Note that DrZoidberg never cited any quote or reference for me actually espousing that view, and also never retracted the strawman or acknowledged the error.

    If DrZoidberg wants to keep beating up strawmen while ignoring my actual positions, I cannot stop him. I will expose him though. This post will serve as one demonstration to the viewers of these red herring and strawman game tactics. It will continue to be posted again each time he continues to argue against the same strawmen.

  8. Top | #158
    Contributor DrZoidberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian63 View Post
    Great diagnosis again, DrZoidberg. In that post right there you not only have demonstrated yet again a terrific knack for exposing the logical holes in my stupid viewpoints, but you also have a terrific knack for diagnosing my underlying and psychological and emotional deficiencies for holding those stupid viewpoints. I don't suppose I could get your generous help to set up any kind of therapy or rehah course to help me treat and cure my illnesses, could I? Would you be willing to help someone like me who has been so mean and bullying towards you, when they criticized you for calling them "dishonest" which was unnecessarily inflammatory and false rhetoric way earlier in the thread? Are you do harbor too much ill will towards me to ever be willing to assist me?

    All love.
    You're always free to ignore any help you are given here.

  9. Top | #159
    Veteran Member Brian63's Avatar
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    Will do, especially when it is bad advice from an incompetent and ego-driven advice-giver who is more interested in put-downs than civil and friendly discussion, all the while dishonestly maintaining that he wants civil and friendly discussion. Oh, when he refers to civil and friendly conversation, he happens to include in that calling you dishonest and defensive and being sarcastic and condescending to you. We just have different ideas apparently of what civil and friendly conversation implies.

  10. Top | #160
    Veteran Member Brian63's Avatar
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    In an earlier post there was a brief exchange with DrZoidberg and me:

    If you only focus on the belief in God,…
    Who ever advocated (I certainly never did) that we should “only focus on the belief in God?” Please provide the exact quote and exact reference. If you cannot find it, please at least retract this strawman you are arguing against, repeatedly.
    Note that DrZoidberg never cited any quote or reference for me actually espousing that view, and also never retracted the strawman or acknowledged the error.

    If DrZoidberg wants to keep beating up strawmen while ignoring my actual positions, I cannot stop him. I will expose him though. This post will serve as one demonstration to the viewers of these red herring and strawman game tactics. It will continue to be posted again each time he continues to argue against the same strawmen.

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