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Thread: Atheists becoming more vocal and outspoken

  1. Top | #141
    Veteran Member Brian63's Avatar
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    In an earlier post there was a brief exchange with DrZoidberg and me:

    If you only focus on the belief in God,…
    Who ever advocated (I certainly never did) that we should “only focus on the belief in God?” Please provide the exact quote and exact reference. If you cannot find it, please at least retract this strawman you are arguing against, repeatedly.
    Note that DrZoidberg never cited any quote or reference for me actually espousing that view, and also never retracted the strawman or acknowledged the error.

    If DrZoidberg wants to keep beating up strawmen while ignoring my actual positions, I cannot stop him. I will expose him though. This post will serve as one demonstration to the viewers of these red herring and strawman game tactics. It will continue to be posted again each time he continues to argue against the same strawmen.

  2. Top | #142
    Contributor DrZoidberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian63 View Post

    Yes.



    No. I just reject the dumb statements you espoused like "People who don't try are guaranteed to fail.” Well actually, you can succeed without trying a particular method, sometimes out of luck, sometimes because you figure out some other method that would work better before you initiated the first method. There can be a significant cost to trying a method, so if we have no good reason to believe the method would work and good reason to believe it would fail (even before we put it into practice), then we would be better off not even attempting it, because that would cost us in the end.

    As an exaggerated example to help you understand---

    If a committee of people who fights to resolve world illiteracy meets and someone says “I want to solve world illiteracy by poisoning everybody’s drinking water, all in one fell swoop. It will not work in piecemeal and we cannot do sample tests, but it will work if all done concurrently worldwide.” Unless they use information and sound reasoning to justify implementing that idea, we should definitely reject that idea. Your “People who don’t try are guaranteed to fail” makes for a good aphorism but is clearly stupid when you give it slightly more thought.

    Similarly you made a comment that “But unless you try, there's no chance in hell to cure cancer.” Try what specifically? Should we try pumping more methane gas into the atmosphere to cure cancer? Should we try an anti-vaccinating campaign against measles, because it might---just might---cure cancer? Should we try crashing airplanes into the ground because it might resolve world hunger? Should doctors try taking decapitating patients because it might cure their heart disease? At some point, we should not adopt the “let’s just try it, because we won’t know unless we try” strategy of living. We instead use past experience and draw inferences from them, to predict what causes will prompt what effects, and what will or will not work better for us.

    .
    Don't change the subject. Your plan is to do nothing but whine at theists in the hope they'll stop being theists, without doing anything they can get behind. I maintain that's dumb. Your defense is that it can work sometimes. And to be really stubborn about not doing anything (except be whiny).

    I think that's the summary of this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian63 View Post

    Now you're getting it.
    You’re still way behind though.
    So close.

  3. Top | #143
    Veteran Member Brian63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
    Don't change the subject.
    Don't tell me what to do, you whiner (irony intended).

    Your plan is to do nothing but whine at theists in the hope they'll stop being theists,...
    Yeah, you got it nailed precisely down there. It must be that super-duper self-proclaimed humility that you keep telling us you have which makes you so smart and civil and friendly, all in one package.

    ...without doing anything they can get behind. I maintain that's dumb. Your defense is that it can work sometimes. And to be really stubborn about not doing anything (except be whiny).
    Is this civil and friendly conversation for you? Just stop the pretense that you are interested in that. Just be honest that you are not, finally.

  4. Top | #144
    Veteran Member Brian63's Avatar
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    In an earlier post there was a brief exchange with DrZoidberg and me:

    If you only focus on the belief in God,…
    Who ever advocated (I certainly never did) that we should “only focus on the belief in God?” Please provide the exact quote and exact reference. If you cannot find it, please at least retract this strawman you are arguing against, repeatedly.
    Note that DrZoidberg never cited any quote or reference for me actually espousing that view, and also never retracted the strawman or acknowledged the error.

    If DrZoidberg wants to keep beating up strawmen while ignoring my actual positions, I cannot stop him. I will expose him though. This post will serve as one demonstration to the viewers of these red herring and strawman game tactics. It will continue to be posted again each time he continues to argue against the same strawmen.

  5. Top | #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian63 View Post

    Yes.



    No. I just reject the dumb statements you espoused like "People who don't try are guaranteed to fail.” Well actually, you can succeed without trying a particular method, sometimes out of luck, sometimes because you figure out some other method that would work better before you initiated the first method. There can be a significant cost to trying a method, so if we have no good reason to believe the method would work and good reason to believe it would fail (even before we put it into practice), then we would be better off not even attempting it, because that would cost us in the end.

    As an exaggerated example to help you understand---

    If a committee of people who fights to resolve world illiteracy meets and someone says “I want to solve world illiteracy by poisoning everybody’s drinking water, all in one fell swoop. It will not work in piecemeal and we cannot do sample tests, but it will work if all done concurrently worldwide.” Unless they use information and sound reasoning to justify implementing that idea, we should definitely reject that idea. Your “People who don’t try are guaranteed to fail” makes for a good aphorism but is clearly stupid when you give it slightly more thought.

    Similarly you made a comment that “But unless you try, there's no chance in hell to cure cancer.” Try what specifically? Should we try pumping more methane gas into the atmosphere to cure cancer? Should we try an anti-vaccinating campaign against measles, because it might---just might---cure cancer? Should we try crashing airplanes into the ground because it might resolve world hunger? Should doctors try taking decapitating patients because it might cure their heart disease? At some point, we should not adopt the “let’s just try it, because we won’t know unless we try” strategy of living. We instead use past experience and draw inferences from them, to predict what causes will prompt what effects, and what will or will not work better for us.

    Now you're getting it.
    You’re still way behind though.
    People who do not try depend on luck and serendipity. The statement has meaning from observation. The statement that those who do not try wills fail means doing nothing on problem generally leads to failure, nothing gets done, that is out in the real world. The mining is obvious and the saying is in common use. You are carrying it to an absurd academic extreme. Your analogy are a weak argument.

    Ckngress on immigration.

    Is the poihnt of thread just debate with no purpose?

    If you have had to actualy deal in any signigiant way with ideological sometimes fanatical Christians yiu would see why most of us post here.

    Christians think they are in a war, and we atheists are the enemy. This is far from an academic debate. We see right now in the exchanges around VP Pence and his religious stance on gays. There is a Christian power segment of society who would through governent impose religion.

    Up through at least the 50s being an outspoken atheist could get you into trouble in a community or at work. It can still happen in the workplace.

  6. Top | #146
    Veteran Member Brian63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    Is the poihnt of thread just debate with no purpose?
    Even if someone disagreed with me on the position, as many here do, why would you read the very OP of the thread and think that this thread exists with no purpose but to debate? Clearly there is a position that I am arguing for. It is a common rhetorical tactic, when you disagree with someone and especially dislike them, to accuse them of arguing without purpose. Just think about whether that accusation is accurate though before actually making the accusation.

  7. Top | #147
    Cyborg with a Tiara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruth Harris View Post
    So, yes – open, frank, respectful conversation is always welcome. Derogatory statements or attitudes about the person are not, and this applies to both sides. I have defended atheists when people I know say things such as “All atheists are stupid” and have made it very clear that they are completely wrong. I would expect no less from an honest atheist if they heard the same thing about all believers.
    So have you torn out of your bible the passages where it says exactly that? If not, you are not really defending atheists if you still own a bible and listen in a church when they contain bibles that say that. Is it respectful to love a bible that is disrespectful of atheists?


    “The unbeliever is a fool”
    “Do not be yoked to an unbeliever, because what business does darkness have with light,” etc.
    “The unbelieve shall perish and be not welcome in heaven.”

    If you are willing to see a bible and NOT tear out those pages, then you aren’t really able to claim that you “defended atheists when people I know say things such as “All atheists are stupid” and have made it very clear that they are completely wrong.”

    As long as you tolerate copies of a bible that EXPLICITLY says exactly that, your claim to defend atheists against it is hollow and untrue. Don’t you think?

  8. Top | #148
    Contributor DrZoidberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian63 View Post

    Don't tell me what to do, you whiner (irony intended).



    Yeah, you got it nailed precisely down there. It must be that super-duper self-proclaimed humility that you keep telling us you have which makes you so smart and civil and friendly, all in one package.

    ...without doing anything they can get behind. I maintain that's dumb. Your defense is that it can work sometimes. And to be really stubborn about not doing anything (except be whiny).
    Is this civil and friendly conversation for you? Just stop the pretense that you are interested in that. Just be honest that you are not, finally.
    You are the one saying all this!!! I'm just saying back to you what you are saying. If you find this offensive then you are insulting yourself.

    Unless of course you don't mean what you said or you haven't been clear? So have you?

  9. Top | #149
    Veteran Member Brian63's Avatar
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    The problem was not that your words are offensive, it is that you are intentionally and unapologetically trying to be offensive, all the while trying to put on a deceitful show that you are just trying to have a civil and friendly conversation. When I write words with the intention of insulting someone, I will not be dishonest and say that I was not. If asked, I will admit that that was the intention. You still do the opposite though, and pretend to want civil and friendly conversation all the while writing out these very uncivil and unfriendly comments. Own your words or retract them. Do not try to deceitfully try to play it both ways though.

  10. Top | #150
    Veteran Member Brian63's Avatar
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    In an earlier post there was a brief exchange with DrZoidberg and me:

    If you only focus on the belief in God,…
    Who ever advocated (I certainly never did) that we should “only focus on the belief in God?” Please provide the exact quote and exact reference. If you cannot find it, please at least retract this strawman you are arguing against, repeatedly.
    Note that DrZoidberg never cited any quote or reference for me actually espousing that view, and also never retracted the strawman or acknowledged the error.

    If DrZoidberg wants to keep beating up strawmen while ignoring my actual positions, I cannot stop him. I will expose him though. This post will serve as one demonstration to the viewers of these red herring and strawman game tactics. It will continue to be posted again each time he continues to argue against the same strawmen.

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