Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 12

Thread: Baramins

  1. Top | #1
    Administrator lpetrich's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Lebanon, OR
    Posts
    6,088
    Archived
    16,829
    Total Posts
    22,917
    Rep Power
    79

    Baramins

    A baramin is a creationist "created kind", all organisms that are descended from some specially-created ancestor.

    The word was coined from Hebrew bara ("created", like in Genesis 1:1) and min ("kind", "species").

    But that word is bad grammar in Hebrew. Proper Hebrew would be "min baru" with plural "minim baru'im"

    I think that "baramin" is a VERY naive translation from English. It uses English word order, adjective-noun, instead of Hebrew word order, noun-adjective, and it uses a past-tense form instead of a passive participle, while in English, most verbs have identical-looking simple past tenses and past/passive participles. The "created" in "created kind" is a passive participle, an adjective derived from a verb with passive-voice meaning.


    That aside, creationists have differing opinions on what is in a baramin. Do Creationists Really Believe in Evolution? | The Institute for Creation Research proposes a common view among young-earth creationists, that a baramin often includes several species, species that share two or fourteen individual ancestors that Noah had carried aboard his ark. Thus, in their account, the dog baramin includes domestic dogs, wolves, coyotes and the like, species that all diverged after Noah's Flood. This requires descent with modification, what we more usually call evolution.
    What then are we to make of the recent comment by Dr. Hugh Ross, well-known semi-creationist, and aggressive advocate of billions of years, the Big Bang, and death before sin, who labels ICR and other young-earth creationists as "hyperevolutionists." He claims that we must account for the "half billion species" in the fossil record by major changes after creation and the curse, and the "five million" alive today in the thousands of years since the Flood from the "30,000" or so on the Ark. (The Genesis Debate, 2001, pp. 126_127.)
    Hugh Ross evidently believes that a baramin is a single species.

  2. Top | #2
    Fair dinkum thinkum bilby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    The Sunshine State: The one with Crocs, not Gators
    Posts
    21,560
    Archived
    10,477
    Total Posts
    32,037
    Rep Power
    82
    My question for these fools would be, "How many marsupial and monotreme baramins are there, and how did Noah collect them, and more importantly, ensure that they got to Australia after the flood, without leaving any descendants on other continents?"

  3. Top | #3
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Riverside City
    Posts
    3,255
    Archived
    6,289
    Total Posts
    9,544
    Rep Power
    36
    Quote Originally Posted by bilby View Post
    My question for these fools would be, "How many marsupial and monotreme baramins are there, and how did Noah collect them, and more importantly, ensure that they got to Australia after the flood, without leaving any descendants on other continents?"
    possums?

  4. Top | #4
    Administrator lpetrich's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Lebanon, OR
    Posts
    6,088
    Archived
    16,829
    Total Posts
    22,917
    Rep Power
    79
    Quote Originally Posted by bilby View Post
    My question for these fools would be, "How many marsupial and monotreme baramins are there, and how did Noah collect them, and more importantly, ensure that they got to Australia after the flood, without leaving any descendants on other continents?"
    Yup. Creationists lose badly in biogeography.

    Like how all the sloths got to South America with none being left behind. They live in trees and they eat tree leaves, and they were named after their great slowness, so why did they go all that distance when there were plenty of trees along the way?

    Or how all the rattlesnakes got to North America with none being left behind. Or the monarch butterflies or the raccoons or the skunks.


    Comparison of different creationists' opinions on human-ancestor fossils Which ones are in an ape baramin and which ones in the human baramin? Fossil Hominid Skulls | Anthropology.net -- note the continuity in the sequence.

    If one goes far back enough, one gets to human ancestors that were also the ancestors of chimpanzees. So does the human baramin include chimps?

    Or consider a possible horse baramin. Does it include only the domestic horse? (Equus ferus caballus) That horse's wild ancestors? (Equus ferus) Donkeys and zebras? (Equus). Pliohippus? Merychippus? Miohippus? Hyracotherium? (originally Eohippus)? Once one gets this far back in horses' ancestry, one gets to ancestors of tapirs and rhinoceroses.

    Or a possible cat baramin. Does it include only domestic cats? Their closest wild relatives? Larger felines? Like lynxes and ocelots and mountain lions and leopards and jaguars and lions and tigers. Sabertooths? Mongooses and civets and hyenas?

  5. Top | #5
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    1,457
    Rep Power
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by bilby View Post
    My question for these fools would be, "How many marsupial and monotreme baramins are there, and how did Noah collect them, and more importantly, ensure that they got to Australia after the flood, without leaving any descendants on other continents?"
    with God's help, of course.

  6. Top | #6
    Administrator lpetrich's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Lebanon, OR
    Posts
    6,088
    Archived
    16,829
    Total Posts
    22,917
    Rep Power
    79
    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Nut View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bilby View Post
    My question for these fools would be, "How many marsupial and monotreme baramins are there, and how did Noah collect them, and more importantly, ensure that they got to Australia after the flood, without leaving any descendants on other continents?"
    with God's help, of course.
    So God worked some miracles? That can explain ANYTHING.

  7. Top | #7
    Fair dinkum thinkum bilby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    The Sunshine State: The one with Crocs, not Gators
    Posts
    21,560
    Archived
    10,477
    Total Posts
    32,037
    Rep Power
    82
    Quote Originally Posted by lpetrich View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Nut View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bilby View Post
    My question for these fools would be, "How many marsupial and monotreme baramins are there, and how did Noah collect them, and more importantly, ensure that they got to Australia after the flood, without leaving any descendants on other continents?"
    with God's help, of course.
    So God worked some miracles? That can explain ANYTHING.
    And as we have an explanation for anything, there's no need for science. Checkmate, atheists.

  8. Top | #8
    Administrator lpetrich's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Lebanon, OR
    Posts
    6,088
    Archived
    16,829
    Total Posts
    22,917
    Rep Power
    79
    I have thought of a plausible Hebrew interpretation for "bara min": "he created a kind".

  9. Top | #9
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Atlantis
    Posts
    329
    Archived
    2,449
    Total Posts
    2,778
    Rep Power
    55
    I remember asking creationists what a kind was. No one had an answer. A kind is anything that a creationist wants it to be. It can shift from a subspecies at the beginning of a sentence to a kingdom at the end.

    Eldarion Lathria

  10. Top | #10
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    1,457
    Rep Power
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by lpetrich View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Nut View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bilby View Post
    My question for these fools would be, "How many marsupial and monotreme baramins are there, and how did Noah collect them, and more importantly, ensure that they got to Australia after the flood, without leaving any descendants on other continents?"
    with God's help, of course.
    So God worked some miracles? That can explain ANYTHING.
    Explanatory power is a measure of the strength of a Theory. So miracles must be a damn good one!

    I just scienced the shit out of that!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •