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Thread: The problems with Greek translation.

  1. Top | #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    Just watched the a show on the Dead Sea scrolls. A copper scroll contains words for which there are no translations.

    My Oxford Commentary says the creation story can be interpreted as 'out of chaos god brought order' instead of god created everything.
    The Jewish view is God created the Universe. The most powerful thing I take out of the creation story is the power of words. Words can create worlds and words can destroy worlds. God created the world with words.

    וַיֹּ֥אמֶר אֱלֹהִ֖ים יְהִ֣י אֹ֑ור וַֽיְהִי־אֹֽור׃ And God SAID: Let there be light and there was light. A lesson in the power of speech......

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    Saw an interesting talk once:

    Sonoluminescence is the emission of short bursts of light from imploding bubbles in a liquid when excited by sound.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonoluminescence

    Sounds familiar

    1n the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

    2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

    The First Day: Light

    3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

    (My Jewish friend said similar to "the power of speech". "God spoke and the words was sound")
    Last edited by Learner; 03-31-2019 at 06:21 AM. Reason: correction

  3. Top | #13
    Raspberry bilby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HaRaAYaH View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    Just watched the a show on the Dead Sea scrolls. A copper scroll contains words for which there are no translations.

    My Oxford Commentary says the creation story can be interpreted as 'out of chaos god brought order' instead of god created everything.
    The Jewish view is God created the Universe. The most powerful thing I take out of the creation story is the power of words. Words can create worlds and words can destroy worlds. God created the world with words.

    וַיֹּ֥אמֶר אֱלֹהִ֖ים יְהִ֣י אֹ֑ור וַֽיְהִי־אֹֽור׃ And God SAID: Let there be light and there was light. A lesson in the power of speech......
    Yup. 'Abracadabra!'

    It's magic wearing a silly hat.

    Anyone who thinks it's real needs some serious stiffening of their skepticism, before someone sells them London Bridge, or persuades them to send a few thousand dollars to help a Nigerian prince to get his millions out of the country in exchange gor a 50% cut of his cash.

  4. Top | #14
    Contributor DBT's Avatar
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    Here's another Christian view on the meaning of the word Aionion as it relates to eternal damnation versus universal salvation.


    What Does “Aionion” Mean?


    ''In the debate about the theological validity of Christian universalism one sometimes finds discussion about the meaning of the word “eternal” in Matthew 25:46. Christ there says plainly that the unrighteous “will go away into eternal punishment”, and the word here rendered “eternal” is the Greek aionion [αιωνιον]. Some suggest that the word simply means “age-long”, indicating that the punishment of the unrighteous will endure for an age and then come to an end, and they point out that the root of the word is aeon [αιων], meaning “age”. What are we to make of this?

    Sometimes the word αιων does indeed mean “age” in the sense of a limited duration of time which comes to an end. Thus St. Paul in Romans 16:25: “God…is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages [Greek αιωνιοις] and has now been manifested”. We see here that the word αιων means a limited duration of time, since the ages of time when the mystery had been kept secret came to an end when Christ appeared and was proclaimed by the apostles. Accordingly, one of the meanings of αιων in the Arndt-Gingrich lexicon is “a segment of time, age”. It can also mean “a world” as a spatial concept. Thus Hebrews 11:3: “By faith we understand that the worlds [Greek αιωνας] were created by the Word of God”.

    But it can also mean everlasting, and as such it is applied to God and His dominion and power over all the cosmos, such as in 1 Timothy 6:16: “To Him [i.e. God] be honour and eternal [Greek αιωνιον] dominion”. Presumably God’s dominion is unending and everlasting. The debate about the precise meaning of aionion therefore cannot be solved simply by consulting a lexicon. The word varies in its meaning according to its usage''

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    Member excreationist's Avatar
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    http://jewishnotgreek.com/
    That site says that many Greek philosophers taught that the soul is immortal - and that the soul wasn't immortal according to the Jews - unless people were granted eternal life. It says that angels could suffer forever though.

  6. Top | #16
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Here's another Christian view on the meaning of the word Aionion as it relates to eternal damnation versus universal salvation.


    What Does “Aionion” Mean?


    ''In the debate about the theological validity of Christian universalism one sometimes finds discussion about the meaning of the word “eternal” in Matthew 25:46. Christ there says plainly that the unrighteous “will go away into eternal punishment”, and the word here rendered “eternal” is the Greek aionion [αιωνιον]. Some suggest that the word simply means “age-long”, indicating that the punishment of the unrighteous will endure for an age and then come to an end, and they point out that the root of the word is aeon [αιων], meaning “age”. What are we to make of this?

    Sometimes the word αιων does indeed mean “age” in the sense of a limited duration of time which comes to an end. Thus St. Paul in Romans 16:25: “God…is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages [Greek αιωνιοις] and has now been manifested”. We see here that the word αιων means a limited duration of time, since the ages of time when the mystery had been kept secret came to an end when Christ appeared and was proclaimed by the apostles. Accordingly, one of the meanings of αιων in the Arndt-Gingrich lexicon is “a segment of time, age”. It can also mean “a world” as a spatial concept. Thus Hebrews 11:3: “By faith we understand that the worlds [Greek αιωνας] were created by the Word of God”.

    But it can also mean everlasting, and as such it is applied to God and His dominion and power over all the cosmos, such as in 1 Timothy 6:16: “To Him [i.e. God] be honour and eternal [Greek αιωνιον] dominion”. Presumably God’s dominion is unending and everlasting. The debate about the precise meaning of aionion therefore cannot be solved simply by consulting a lexicon. The word varies in its meaning according to its usage''
    It's interesting that both of your conservative sources use as evidence their own presumption that the dominion of God must be everlasting and unbounded by the present age. Is this necessarily the case? To many Christians of Paul's day, creation itself was finite; all beings were destined to eventually coalesce back into the oneness of God; this is the fundamental eschatological belief of both Origenism and Gnosticism. You cannot have God as your King if you are also becoming God. What does "dominion" even mean in a universe where all human distinctions of lord and vassal have come to an end?

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    Perhaps all biblical commentary rests upon the unspoken truth that every word of every language is idiomatic, and that it's not only the idioms.

  8. Top | #18
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    As there are no Greek words for eternal or everlasting...
    Rubbish.
    There's no such thing as an untranslatable word.

  9. Top | #19
    Contributor DBT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    As there are no Greek words for eternal or everlasting...
    Rubbish.
    There's no such thing as an untranslatable word.
    The trick lies in how it is translated. That being the source of conflict.

  10. Top | #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    As there are no Greek words for eternal or everlasting...
    Rubbish.
    There's no such thing as an untranslatable word.
    The trick lies in how it is translated. That being the source of conflict.
    I don't think most people understand the difference between saying tweet and saying the sound a bird makes. Anything is translatable but every translation is actually an interpretation. It is only comforting to believe otherwise.

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