Page 3 of 7 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 64

Thread: The problems with Greek translation.

  1. Top | #21
    Senior Member excreationist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    537
    Archived
    4,886
    Total Posts
    5,423
    Rep Power
    70
    DBT: what do you think of #15?

  2. Top | #22
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    Chochenyo Territory, US
    Posts
    2,222
    Rep Power
    9
    An alternative perspective on the Aeon:

    Aeon (Gnosticism)

    Not necessarily a measure of time at all. The term in question could therewithin be seen as a promise of an angelic body or existence; Jesus himself was believed to be an angel of sorts by many pre-Trinitarian Christians.

    Despite the oddity of Gnosticism by modern standards, consider that most scholars believe it to have been a firm majority opinion in the Christian world for more than a century.

  3. Top | #23
    Contributor DBT's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    ɹǝpunuʍop puɐן ǝɥʇ
    Posts
    8,688
    Archived
    17,906
    Total Posts
    26,594
    Rep Power
    69
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Here's another Christian view on the meaning of the word Aionion as it relates to eternal damnation versus universal salvation.


    What Does “Aionion” Mean?


    ''In the debate about the theological validity of Christian universalism one sometimes finds discussion about the meaning of the word “eternal” in Matthew 25:46. Christ there says plainly that the unrighteous “will go away into eternal punishment”, and the word here rendered “eternal” is the Greek aionion [αιωνιον]. Some suggest that the word simply means “age-long”, indicating that the punishment of the unrighteous will endure for an age and then come to an end, and they point out that the root of the word is aeon [αιων], meaning “age”. What are we to make of this?

    Sometimes the word αιων does indeed mean “age” in the sense of a limited duration of time which comes to an end. Thus St. Paul in Romans 16:25: “God…is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages [Greek αιωνιοις] and has now been manifested”. We see here that the word αιων means a limited duration of time, since the ages of time when the mystery had been kept secret came to an end when Christ appeared and was proclaimed by the apostles. Accordingly, one of the meanings of αιων in the Arndt-Gingrich lexicon is “a segment of time, age”. It can also mean “a world” as a spatial concept. Thus Hebrews 11:3: “By faith we understand that the worlds [Greek αιωνας] were created by the Word of God”.

    But it can also mean everlasting, and as such it is applied to God and His dominion and power over all the cosmos, such as in 1 Timothy 6:16: “To Him [i.e. God] be honour and eternal [Greek αιωνιον] dominion”. Presumably God’s dominion is unending and everlasting. The debate about the precise meaning of aionion therefore cannot be solved simply by consulting a lexicon. The word varies in its meaning according to its usage''
    It's interesting that both of your conservative sources use as evidence their own presumption that the dominion of God must be everlasting and unbounded by the present age. Is this necessarily the case? To many Christians of Paul's day, creation itself was finite; all beings were destined to eventually coalesce back into the oneness of God; this is the fundamental eschatological belief of both Origenism and Gnosticism. You cannot have God as your King if you are also becoming God. What does "dominion" even mean in a universe where all human distinctions of lord and vassal have come to an end?

    That's because both universal salvationists and eternal damnationists believe in an eternal God. Their point of dispute being the nature of salvation and whether 'punishment' is forever or just a period of time; αιων.

    Even the Torah/Judaism assumes an eternal God because there are verses that clearly imply it, which was not written in Greek using the word aionion.

  4. Top | #24
    Contributor DBT's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    ɹǝpunuʍop puɐן ǝɥʇ
    Posts
    8,688
    Archived
    17,906
    Total Posts
    26,594
    Rep Power
    69
    Quote Originally Posted by excreationist View Post
    DBT: what do you think of #15?
    It seems to be different issue. Even if the penalty for not believers was to be denied eternal life, that is a heavy penalty, a form of eternal damnation. You may have had eternal life, if only you believed but upon judgement this is denied to you. The punishment is harsh even though the dead are not aware that they failed attain immortality. It is essentially the death penalty imposed as a punishment for failing to believe.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by excreationist View Post
    DBT: what do you think of #15?
    It seems to be different issue. Even if the penalty for not believers was to be denied eternal life, that is a heavy penalty, a form of eternal damnation. You may have had eternal life, if only you believed but upon judgement this is denied to you. The punishment is harsh even though the dead are not aware that they failed attain immortality. It is essentially the death penalty imposed as a punishment for failing to believe.

  5. Top | #25
    Senior Member excreationist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    537
    Archived
    4,886
    Total Posts
    5,423
    Rep Power
    70
    DBT: The site in #15 is saying that the unsaved people are tormented for a limited amount of time then die. I don't think that is particularly harsh. At least it is not infinitely times worse where they are tormented for an eternity.

  6. Top | #26
    Contributor DBT's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    ɹǝpunuʍop puɐן ǝɥʇ
    Posts
    8,688
    Archived
    17,906
    Total Posts
    26,594
    Rep Power
    69
    Would you be satisfied to be tormented for only a period of time because you did not believe what the bible claims? Then it's hugs and kisses, all good, justice done....brought to you from the God of Love?

  7. Top | #27
    Veteran Member skepticalbip's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Searching for reality along the long and winding road
    Posts
    4,818
    Archived
    12,976
    Total Posts
    17,794
    Rep Power
    62
    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    As there are no Greek words for eternal or everlasting...
    Rubbish.
    There's no such thing as an untranslatable word.
    Words are translatable but meaning is a bit more difficult. One bit of evidence is that, during the "got milk?" campaign, the slogan was translaterated into Spanish as "Tienes leche?". Just fine, an exact literal translation but, in Spanish, it means "are you lactating?". That translation didn't quite meet the goal of the advertising agency to encourage people to drink more milk.
    Last edited by skepticalbip; 04-02-2019 at 03:50 AM.

  8. Top | #28
    Fair dinkum thinkum bilby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    The Sunshine State: The one with Crocs, not Gators
    Posts
    21,374
    Archived
    10,477
    Total Posts
    31,851
    Rep Power
    81
    Quote Originally Posted by skepticalbip View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    As there are no Greek words for eternal or everlasting...
    Rubbish.
    There's no such thing as an untranslatable word.
    Words are translatable but meaning is a bit more difficult. One bit of evidence is that, during the "got milk?" campaign, the slogan was translaterated into Spanish as "Tienes leche?". Just fine, an exact literal translation but, in Spanish, it means "are you lactating?". That translation doesn't quite meet the goal of the advertising agency to encourage people to drink more milk.
    Exactly. Or to take my earlier post:
    Quote Originally Posted by bilby View Post
    Ich verstehe nur "bahnhof".
    An exact translation to English yields "I only know 'railway station'", which is an awful translation - idioms are simply not translatable in that way.

    An English speaker seeking to convey the same meaning that a German would express as "Ich verstehe nur 'bahnhof'" would say "It's all Greek to me" - not one word of which is the direct translation of any of the words in the German phrase, but which conveys the EXACT same meaning.

    There are, of course, plenty of untranslatable words; But worse still for people seeking the TruthTM, there are also plenty of untranslatable concepts. What is the ancient Greek for 'laser disc'? What's the ancient Latin word for 'kangaroo'? If you found yourself in Rome in 200AD, what Latin word would you use to mean 'Internet'?

    And words change their meanings - often dramatically. A typewriter used to mean 'a person who type writes' as well as the machine with which she did so; A computer was (until the 1940s) a person whose job was to make computations.

    Many English people today struggle to understand Shakespeare, and most struggle with Chaucer - despite both writing in English, and only a few hundred years ago. To assume that even a fluent speaker of modern Greek would be able to accurately understand a text written in Greek thousands of years ago is absurd. To assume that that ancient Greek text could be reliably translated into modern English while retaining all of the meanings and subtleties of the original author's intent is even more absurd. Even to make a half-baked attempt will necessitate a deep understanding of Greek history and culture at the time that the original text was written.

  9. Top | #29
    Administrator lpetrich's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Lebanon, OR
    Posts
    5,827
    Archived
    16,829
    Total Posts
    22,656
    Rep Power
    76
    The Bible should have included a translation guide.

    In any case, I think that the arguments seem like an effort to demonstrate that the Bible does not refer to infinite amounts of time, the usual translation of aiônios. I've found Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, αἰώνιος, and it does include "eternal" as a translation.

  10. Top | #30
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    3,468
    Rep Power
    17
    Quote Originally Posted by skepticalbip View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    As there are no Greek words for eternal or everlasting...
    Rubbish.
    There's no such thing as an untranslatable word.
    Words are translatable but meaning is a bit more difficult. One bit of evidence is that, during the "got milk?" campaign, the slogan was translaterated into Spanish as "Tienes leche?". Just fine, an exact literal translation but, in Spanish, it means "are you lactating?". That translation didn't quite meet the goal of the advertising agency to encourage people to drink more milk.
    Sure.
    But that's an observation which applies even within one single language.
    Hence...synonyms, contranyms, amphibologies, emojis.

Similar Threads

  1. Greek Philosophy
    By Jason Harvestdancer in forum General World History
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 09-14-2017, 06:00 PM
  2. Good Qur'an translation
    By Perspicuo in forum Religious Texts
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 02-22-2015, 05:27 PM
  3. Were the authors of the Greek NT Jewish? (History question:)
    By mountainman in forum General Religion
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 10-30-2014, 01:11 AM
  4. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind vs Lost in Translation
    By rousseau in forum Media & Culture Gallery
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 08-23-2014, 12:41 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •