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Thread: Help improve this perpetual motion machine!

  1. Top | #51
    Contributor Speakpigeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
    Perpetual motion machines are only designed to power themselves.
    Absolutely.
    EB

  2. Top | #52
    Contributor Speakpigeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bilby View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by fromderinside View Post
    Perfect vacuums don't exist. So judging laws of motion and energy within one is impossible.
    The conclusion doesn't follow from the premise.
    Perfect vacuums don't exist. So measuring motion for judging laws of motion and energy within one is impossible.

    Follows?
    EB

  3. Top | #53
    Contributor Speakpigeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    Objects in motion represent Newton's law of inertia. The kinetic energy of an object can do work on an object in another frame depending on relative velocity.

    A frictionless, or lossless system violates LOT.

    A perpetual motion device involves a process that does work. In the case of an object in space it has kinetic energy which can do work but not indefinitely. An object in space will be influenced by gravity however weak, and collisions with dust and gas. Eventually.

    Perpetual motion refers to devioce or system that has no losses or renews itself.

    The universe itself may be in perpetual motion, but the topic refers to man made systems.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_motion

    Perpetual motion is motion of bodies that continues indefinitely. A perpetual motion machine is a hypothetical machine that can do work indefinitely without an energy source. This kind of machine is impossible, as it would violate the first or second law of thermodynamics.[2][3][4][5]

    A perpetual motion machine of the first kind produces work without the input of energy. It thus violates the first law of thermodynamics: the law of conservation of energy.

    A perpetual motion machine of the second kind is a machine which spontaneously converts thermal energy into mechanical work. When the thermal energy is equivalent to the work done, this does not violate the law of conservation of energy. However, it does violate the more subtle second law of thermodynamics (see also entropy). The signature of a perpetual motion machine of the second kind is that there is only one heat reservoir involved, which is being spontaneously cooled without involving a transfer of heat to a cooler reservoir. This conversion of heat into useful work, without any side effect, is impossible, according to the second law of thermodynamics.

    A perpetual motion machine of the third kind is usually (but not always)[15][self-published source] defined as one that completely eliminates friction and other dissipative forces, to maintain motion forever (due to its mass inertia). (Third in this case refers solely to the position in the above classification scheme, not the third law of thermodynamics.) It is impossible to make such a machine,[16][17] as dissipation can never be completely eliminated in a mechanical system, no matter how close a system gets to this ideal (see examples in the Low Friction section).

    Impossibility[edit]

    October 1920 issue of Popular Science magazine, on perpetual motion. Although scientists have established them to be impossible under the laws of physics, perpetual motion continues to capture the imagination of inventors. The device shown is a "mass leverage" device, where the spherical weights on the right have more leverage than those on the left, supposedly creating a perpetual rotation. However, there are a greater number of weights on the left, balancing the device.
    "Epistemic impossibility" describes things which absolutely cannot occur within our current formulation of the physical laws. This interpretation of the word "impossible" is what is intended in discussions of the impossibility of perpetual motion in a closed system.[18]
    It's a very sad reflection on our time that people can no longer find anything relevant to say. They quote Wiki.
    EB

  4. Top | #54
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    LOT is about a system. launch a ball towards another ship and all the energy can not be removed by the seined ship. 100% of the change in energy of the ball can not be used to do work. A machine involves a processes involving work.

    A ball in motion is not a machine , Using the energy of the ball to do continuous work without replenishment would be a perpetual motion machine.

    Work is force time distance. Once a ball in space is in motion there is no applied force hence no work is being done.


    A perpetual motion machine of the third kind is usually (but not always)[15][self-published source] defined as one that completely eliminates friction and other dissipative forces, to maintain motion forever (due to its mass inertia). (Third in this case refers solely to the position in the above classification scheme, not the third law of thermodynamics.) It is impossible to make such a machine,[16][17] as dissipation can never be completely eliminated in a mechanical system, no matter how close a system gets to this ideal (see examples in the Low Friction section).

  5. Top | #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speakpigeon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bilby View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by fromderinside View Post
    Perfect vacuums don't exist. So judging laws of motion and energy within one is impossible.
    The conclusion doesn't follow from the premise.
    Perfect vacuums don't exist. So measuring motion for judging laws of motion and energy within one is impossible.

    Follows?
    EB
    Everything in the universe from our vantage oint appears to run down. The erth is slowing down. At the Universescale the question is open.

    Gravitaion is a long range force. It may be very small in deep space but it does effect an object however small the effect may be.

    From the link a large flywheel spun up in a vacuum can take years to run down due to friction.

  6. Top | #56
    Fair dinkum thinkum bilby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speakpigeon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bilby View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by fromderinside View Post
    Perfect vacuums don't exist. So judging laws of motion and energy within one is impossible.
    The conclusion doesn't follow from the premise.
    Perfect vacuums don't exist. So measuring motion for judging laws of motion and energy within one is impossible.

    Follows?
    EB
    Yes, I would agree with that.

    But we can certainly extrapolate to a theoretical perfect vacuum.

    In a perfect vacuum, an object in motion relative to an arbitrary reference will continue in motion forever unless acted upon by an external force - for this NOT to be true would violate the first law of thermodynamics.

  7. Top | #57
    Contributor Speakpigeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bilby View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Speakpigeon View Post

    Perfect vacuums don't exist. So measuring motion for judging laws of motion and energy within one is impossible.

    Follows?
    EB
    Yes, I would agree with that.

    But we can certainly extrapolate to a theoretical perfect vacuum.

    In a perfect vacuum, an object in motion relative to an arbitrary reference will continue in motion forever unless acted upon by an external force - for this NOT to be true would violate the first law of thermodynamics.
    Exactly.

    And, suddenly, the role of logic (logic, not necessarily formal logic) is revealed as absolutely crucial to all rationality, including scientific rationality. Humans reason in the abstract or they don't reason.
    EB

  8. Top | #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speakpigeon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bilby View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Speakpigeon View Post

    Perfect vacuums don't exist. So measuring motion for judging laws of motion and energy within one is impossible.

    Follows?
    EB
    Yes, I would agree with that.

    But we can certainly extrapolate to a theoretical perfect vacuum.

    In a perfect vacuum, an object in motion relative to an arbitrary reference will continue in motion forever unless acted upon by an external force - for this NOT to be true would violate the first law of thermodynamics.
    Exactly.

    And, suddenly, the role of logic (logic, not necessarily formal logic) is revealed as absolutely crucial to all rationality, including scientific rationality. Humans reason in the abstract or they don't reason.
    EB

    It appears revelation to you. Valid logic can support both rational irrational thought. All depends on the hypothesis.

    It us illogical to try r to make a PPM work or 'improve it'. It is irrational.

    I am taking my company SB Perpetual Motion Machines public. We are on the verge of a breakthrough. Anyone want to buy stock?

  9. Top | #59
    Contributor Speakpigeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Speakpigeon View Post

    Exactly.

    And, suddenly, the role of logic (logic, not necessarily formal logic) is revealed as absolutely crucial to all rationality, including scientific rationality. Humans reason in the abstract or they don't reason.
    It appears revelation to you.
    I already knew you can't read the subtext.

    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    Valid logic can support both rational irrational thought. All depends on the hypothesis.

    It us illogical to try r to make a PPM work or 'improve it'. It is irrational.

    I am taking my company SB Perpetual Motion Machines public. We are on the verge of a breakthrough. Anyone want to buy stock?
    What is evidence of your profound irrationality is your persistance in not understanding the actual question asked and in opting instead for a red herring.

    You are just one of a bunch of people like that here. You're not even remarkable in that. You're all pathetic, though.
    EB

  10. Top | #60
    Fair dinkum thinkum bilby's Avatar
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    An impossible task is the easiest task of all; You can achieve the optimum outcome by doing nothing.

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