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Thread: The Unequal Opportunity Race

  1. Top | #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post

    Au contraire: Of course I benefit from Affirmative Action. All of us do.
    Society suffers when people are discriminated against by race. When affirmative action does this, society is poorer for it.

    You are a white woman, a class which has probably benefited the most from affirmative action. An Australian university recently restricted applications for university lecturer positions in engineering to female applicants only. We can only be sure of one thing under that policy: that the person hired was the best female-identifying applicant for the job

    She may not have been the best person for the job, because an entire class of persons was not even considered.
    Indeed, I am well aware of just how many doors were open to me that were not open to my mother or any of the women before her. Frankly, I am grateful to have been born at the time I was born, with a father who encouraged his daughter to pursue math and science, and with male teachers who encouraged me as well. They helped counteract all of those (mostly male) voices who told me over and over and over again that girls couldn't do X or Y or weren't good at Z.

    White women have benefited the most from affirmative action because benefiting white women also benefited white men directly, in ways that hit their personal pocketbooks. Men could now count on having a spouse with a career to supplement the family income and to be more easily disposable if he decided he was tired of the marriage. And their daughters would be better able to fend for themselves, so less need to look after an unpromising son in law and help along his career (yeah, that happened in my family, actually. Didn't work. Guy was and remains a lazy asshole who can't keep a job).

    I think that society is better off because (most) doors are no longer closed to white women. We'll be much better off when doors are no longer closed to persons of color, LGBTQ persons, religious minorities and yes: men.

  2. Top | #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ruby sparks View Post

    Same question to anyone reading the thread.

    - - - Updated - - -



    This has not been demonstrated in the case of AA (and especially not in the case of gender-based AA, which you have mentioned, but which is not really on topic per se).
    Where can you demonstrate that society is better off when it discriminates by race?
    American society is much better off because Affirmative Action opened doorways to educational and professional and job opportunities to persons of color which were previously restricted from participation by those persons of color, particularly Black people. Today, it is not unusual to see professionals who are Black or Hispanic but it certainly was when I was a child.

    Opening opportunities to all--which is what Affirmative Action does--benefits all.

  3. Top | #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ruby sparks View Post

    Same question to anyone reading the thread.

    - - - Updated - - -



    This has not been demonstrated in the case of AA (and especially not in the case of gender-based AA, which you have mentioned, but which is not really on topic per se).
    Where can you demonstrate that society is better off when it discriminates by race?
    American society is much better off because Affirmative Action opened doorways to educational and professional and job opportunities to persons of color which were previously restricted from participation by those persons of color, particularly Black people. Today, it is not unusual to see professionals who are Black or Hispanic but it certainly was when I was a child.

    Opening opportunities to all--which is what Affirmative Action does--benefits all.
    The opportunities are open without institutions discriminating by race.

  4. Top | #114
    Veteran Member ruby sparks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Where can you demonstrate that society is better off when it discriminates by race?
    Sorry, but it's on you. You made the initial claim that society suffers.

    I have already made some specific comments regarding benefits, which you can read and which could be elaborated on. But you first. It's your claim.

    I am already fairly sure, before you even start, that you don't have the evidence for it. Or, you may have some evidence of some downside aspects, but you do not have evidence in overall terms, on balance.

  5. Top | #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by ruby sparks View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Where can you demonstrate that society is better off when it discriminates by race?
    Sorry, but you first. Me later. You made the initial claim that society has suffered.
    Of course it has suffered, because it damages individuals to be discriminated against because of their race.

    Slavery in the United States discriminated by race. It was bad. Jim Crow discriminated by race. It was bad. Discriminating by race is bad.

    In fact, the general consensus is that discriminating by race is bad, which is why Western countries have statutes that forbid discriminating by race in public situations such as employment and commerce and various other situations.

  6. Top | #116
    Veteran Member ruby sparks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Of course it has suffered, because it damages individuals to be discriminated against because of their race.
    That is merely anecdote and personal opinion, at best. And you were talking about society in any case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Slavery in the United States discriminated by race. It was bad. Jim Crow discriminated by race. It was bad. Discriminating by race is bad.

    In fact, the general consensus is that discriminating by race is bad, which is why Western countries have statutes that forbid discriminating by race in public situations such as employment and commerce and various other situations.
    All discriminations by race cannot reasonably be lumped together. This should hardly even need to be said (again). The question is whether discrimination such as AA for example, or other positive discriminations or Positive Actions (as they are known) have resulted in society suffering, on balance (ie that it has suffered more than it has benefitted).

    Do you realise that discrimination by race, where appropriate, is allowed for in for example UN Charters on Human Rights? In fact quotas are allowed for in certain severe situations. What is your response to that fact? You appear, in your own personal opinion, to disagree with the UN Charters (or to be more exact, charter in its various forms and amendments) on Human Rights. Where does that leave your point of view?

  7. Top | #117
    Veteran Member ruby sparks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post
    I think that society is better off because (most) doors are no longer closed to white women. We'll be much better off when doors are no longer closed to persons of color, LGBTQ persons, religious minorities and yes: men.
    Indeed. Women's participations (to temporarily pick up on something which may be slightly off-topic) have gradually increased over the last 100 years in particular, quantitatively and qualitatively, in many spheres of human activity, often due to AA policies and other positive discriminations and Positive Actions, despite initial and to a lesser extent ongoing concerns and resistances and objections from certain quarters, and the sky has not fallen in, and civilisation has not crumbled, and economies have not faltered because of it.
    Last edited by ruby sparks; 04-16-2019 at 12:04 PM.

  8. Top | #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by ruby sparks View Post

    That is merely anecdote and personal opinion, at best. And you were talking about society in any case.
    Society is the sum total of individual experiences.

    All discriminations by race cannot reasonably be lumped together. This should hardly even need to be said (again). The question is whether discrimination such as AA for example, or other positive discriminations or Positive Actions (as they are known) have resulted in society suffering, on balance (ie that it has suffered more than it has benefitted).
    "Positive" discrimination is discrimination. All discrimination is negative discrimination. There is no discrimination where somebody is not discriminated against. Pretending you can discriminate for a group and not simultaneously discriminate against another is semantic and logical incoherence.

    Do you realise that discrimination by race, where appropriate, is allowed for in for example UN Charters on Human Rights? In fact quotas are allowed for in certain severe situations. What is your response to that fact? You appear, in your own personal opinion, to disagree with the UN Charters (or to be more exact, charter in its various forms and amendments) on Human Rights. Where does that leave your point of view?
    Discrimination is allowed, incoherently, in Australia's own Racial Discrimination Act (1975) under the guise of 'special measures'. It's incoherent and I oppose it.

    I don't simply look to appeals to authorities to make my moral judgments for me. Why do you?

  9. Top | #119
    Veteran Member ruby sparks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Society is the sum total of individual experiences.
    Exactly. And you were talking about society; sum totals, in your own words. But you have provided no sums.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    "Positive" discrimination is discrimination.
    Quite obviously correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    All discrimination is negative discrimination.
    Quite obviously incorrect and not even a matter of opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    I don't simply look to appeals to authorities to make my moral judgments for me. Why do you?
    I don't. But I was just pointing out that your personal point of view is at odds with the UN Charter(s) on Human Rights, which is surely not in its favour.

    So, getting back to the claim that society overall suffers because of AA..........

    In fact. Forget it. Forget I asked. I remain fairly sure, based on what I already know (and I have probably looked into it a lot more thoroughly than you) that there is not a good case for that claim.

  10. Top | #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by ruby sparks View Post
    Exactly.
    So why ask me how society suffers when individuals suffer?

    Quite obviously incorrect and not even a matter of opinion.
    Non. It is not 'quite obviously incorrect'. It is the ineluctable consequence of words having meaning.
    So, getting back to your claim that society overall suffers because of AA..........

    In fact. Forget it. Forget I asked. I remain fairly sure, based on what I already know (and I have probably looked into it a lot more thoroughly than you) that there is not a good case for that claim.
    You have no idea what I've "looked into" or indeed anything about me. You conflate affirmative action with discrimination by race (some affirmative action is and that's the affirmative action I oppose).

    You have unexamined assumptions that discrimination by race can be divided into 'positive' and 'negative', as if one can exist without the other. (They can't). That isn't an empirical observation: it's a logical inevitability.

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