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Thread: The Unequal Opportunity Race

  1. Top | #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post

    I my area, schools ( well over 90 percent white with the next largest group Asians—who have more discipline referrals than white students) implemented what is known as a ‘zero tolerance’ policy. Which means that teachers and administrators have no discretion about discipline meted out. Which meant that the victim of bullies was punished as well as the bullies) It is quite similar to mandated sentencing, where judges have no discretion about sentences. In a simple black/white world where everything is either good or bad, right or wrong, guilty or innocent, this is a great idea. But reality is much different and greater injustices often occurred. In the legal system, crimes were often pled down because jurors were reluctant to find a defendant guilty if they knew the sentence would be more harsh than the crime merited.
    I very specifically did not use the words 'zero tolerance', precisely because of its inflexibility and perverse outcomes.

    However, I also don't understand why zero tolerance has to lead to victims getting punished as well as the bullies. If your discipline rule is 'any student who initiates violence must be suspended' then that excludes students defending themselves.

    But as soon as you implement rules that are 'race conscious' - that any disparity between suspension rates by race will lead to suspicion being cast on the staff giving the suspensions - then you will get the perverse outcomes documented in this thread. Staff who are too afraid to give out warranted suspensions because of the fear that disparate outcomes will be blamed on the staff.
    For the record, my school district is well over 90% white, with the second largest portion of the population being Asian. Black students are a very small minority.

    As used in my district, two children involved in an altercation were both treated equally, including the child who either defended him/herself or was passive. No, it wasn't right or fair or effective except at getting students to not report being victimized. Which I think was the real point anyway.

    No one is talking about race conscious sentencing, although statistics will show that blacks typically receive harsher sentences than do whites for the same or similar crimes. The fact is that black children are perceived to be older and less vulnerable (and therefore more culpable) that white children, at very young ages. This only increases as children grow older and into adulthood. Black people are perceived to be more violent, and to feel less pain, just as Chinese laborers who were imported (sorry for the objectification by verb choice but that's reflective of how Chinese laborers were seen) were seen as feeling less pain or hunger: as being less than human. It was wrong to treat Chinese laborers in such a humane manner and it is wrong to treat black people in that manner.

    The fact is that the US relied upon slave labor for a couple of centuries. In order to justify the inhumane treatment of slaves, it was necessary to perceive them as 'other' as less than human, which has slowly evolved to less human than white people--small progress indeed. Native Americans were also treated as less than human and are still treated as less than fully equal human beings. Sure, they are romanticized in some respects but the reality of how native peoples are treated gives lie to the romantic stories.

  2. Top | #302
    Veteran Member Trausti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Trausti View Post

    We know the races offend at different rates. Hardly surprising we'd see that in the schools, too.

    We know that different demographic groups are arrested at different rates. That is not the same thing as offending at different rates,
    Denying reality doesn't make it go away.

    There's a very good reason to use murder for the comparison--it's high clearance rate. The number of unsolved murders is nowhere near high enough to permit those statistics to be a sampling bias.
    Well, the murder clearance rate in big cities like Chicago and Baltimore is actually quite low. But no doubt the uncaught killers in Chicago are White dudes wearing MAGA hats attacking C-list Black actors at two in the morning during the polar vortex. No doubt at all.

    The issue of murder clearance rates is in the spotlight as Chicago officials struggle to solve gun violence that’s plaguing the city. But the nation’s third-largest city, which only cleared 26 percent of its homicides in 2016, is just one among many big cities struggling to quickly solve gun crimes, according to FBI data and crime experts.

    Last weekend in Chicago, more than 70 people were shot, including 12 fatally, but only a single arrest has been made so far from the dozens of shootings over a 60-hour period.


    Unsolved murders: Chicago, other big cities struggle; murder rate a 'national disaster'

  3. Top | #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by laughing dog View Post
    At a minimum, it would be insane to
    1) assert that cultural differences in upbringing would lead to massive disparities in suspensions (which is the case), and
    2) ignore the underlying basis that cultural differences in upbringing would lead to cultural differences in both setting and interpreting the standards for suspension,
    without sufficient evidence to support that thinking. In this thread, there are links substantiating #2. All I have seen from you is apriori reasoning without any basis in actual data.
    I didn't assert 1).
    Didn't say you did.
    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    In fact, I've already said the disparities are probably originate from a mixture of factors, but that actual behaviour of the groups is one of them.
    You may have meant to say that, but that is not what you said.
    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    I've already given my solution. Get rid of bullshit reasons for suspension and minimise teacher discretion.
    That solution is unrealistic, since there is no magic wand. Nor does it address the underlying issue that there is real evidence that black students get suspended for behaviors that other students are not suspended for.
    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Others have no solution except to look at the outcome, see a disparity, and then blame racism, no matter what.
    Yeah, because racism is never an issue.

  4. Top | #304
    Veteran Member Trausti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by laughing dog View Post
    Yeah, because racism is never an issue.
    Racism does not explain why Black males offend more than any other group. It does not explain the murder rate in Chicago. To persist in the fallacy only allows the situation to worsen.

  5. Top | #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trausti View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by laughing dog View Post
    Yeah, because racism is never an issue.
    Racism does not explain why Black males offend more than any other group. It does not explain the murder rate in Chicago. To persist in the fallacy only allows the situation to worsen.
    Since neither Metaphor nor I were discussing murder rates, your inheritance of the straw man gene is prompting another straw man.

  6. Top | #306
    Veteran Member Trausti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by laughing dog View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Trausti View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by laughing dog View Post
    Yeah, because racism is never an issue.
    Racism does not explain why Black males offend more than any other group. It does not explain the murder rate in Chicago. To persist in the fallacy only allows the situation to worsen.
    Since neither Metaphor nor I were discussing murder rates, wtf are you babbling about?
    Your religious devotion to blaming everything on racism; like the fundamentalist preacher blames everything on the Devil.

  7. Top | #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by laughing dog View Post
    Didn't say you did.
    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    In fact, I've already said the disparities are probably originate from a mixture of factors, but that actual behaviour of the groups is one of them.
    You may have meant to say that, but that is not what you said.
    I did say it. I bullet pointed it.

  8. Top | #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trausti View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by laughing dog View Post
    Since neither Metaphor nor I were discussing murder rates, wtf are you babbling about?
    Your religious devotion to blaming everything on racism; like the fundamentalist preacher blames everything on the Devil.
    Wow, another straw man. From whom do you attribute your inheritance of the straw man gene?

  9. Top | #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post

    I my area, schools ( well over 90 percent white with the next largest group Asians—who have more discipline referrals than white students) implemented what is known as a ‘zero tolerance’ policy. Which means that teachers and administrators have no discretion about discipline meted out. Which meant that the victim of bullies was punished as well as the bullies) It is quite similar to mandated sentencing, where judges have no discretion about sentences. In a simple black/white world where everything is either good or bad, right or wrong, guilty or innocent, this is a great idea. But reality is much different and greater injustices often occurred. In the legal system, crimes were often pled down because jurors were reluctant to find a defendant guilty if they knew the sentence would be more harsh than the crime merited.
    I very specifically did not use the words 'zero tolerance', precisely because of its inflexibility and perverse outcomes.

    However, I also don't understand why zero tolerance has to lead to victims getting punished as well as the bullies. If your discipline rule is 'any student who initiates violence must be suspended' then that excludes students defending themselves.

    But as soon as you implement rules that are 'race conscious' - that any disparity between suspension rates by race will lead to suspicion being cast on the staff giving the suspensions - then you will get the perverse outcomes documented in this thread. Staff who are too afraid to give out warranted suspensions because of the fear that disparate outcomes will be blamed on the staff.
    For the record, my school district is well over 90% white, with the second largest portion of the population being Asian. Black students are a very small minority.

    As used in my district, two children involved in an altercation were both treated equally, including the child who either defended him/herself or was passive. No, it wasn't right or fair or effective except at getting students to not report being victimized. Which I think was the real point anyway.

    No one is talking about race conscious sentencing, although statistics will show that blacks typically receive harsher sentences than do whites for the same or similar crimes. The fact is that black children are perceived to be older and less vulnerable (and therefore more culpable) that white children, at very young ages. This only increases as children grow older and into adulthood. Black people are perceived to be more violent, and to feel less pain, just as Chinese laborers who were imported (sorry for the objectification by verb choice but that's reflective of how Chinese laborers were seen) were seen as feeling less pain or hunger: as being less than human. It was wrong to treat Chinese laborers in such an inhumane manner and it is wrong to treat black people in that manner.

    The fact is that the US relied upon slave labor for a couple of centuries. In order to justify the inhumane treatment of slaves, it was necessary to perceive them as 'other, ' as less than human, which has slowly evolved to less equally human than white people--small progress indeed. Native Americans were also treated as less than human and are still treated as less than fully equal human beings. Sure, they are romanticized in some respects but the reality of how native peoples are treated gives lie to the romantic stories.
    So sorry: I did not notice the autocorrect that changed the meaning of what I wrote (see bold).

  10. Top | #310
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by laughing dog View Post
    Didn't say you did.
    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    In fact, I've already said the disparities are probably originate from a mixture of factors, but that actual behaviour of the groups is one of them.
    You may have meant to say that, but that is not what you said.
    I did say it. I bullet pointed it.
    Not in our discussion - you have explicitly relied on one factor.

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