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Thread: Failed prophecy.

  1. Top | #21
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    If you look at the Jesus in the gospels in the context of the geopolitics he was a Jewish prophet predicting the end not of the world but Israel. He was saying get it together go back to tradition or face destruction.

    Jesus appears educated for his day. If had been out in the Roman empire the fall of Israel would have been an easy prediction.

    From a book I read on the history of Israel it was said in ancient times it was common to have operatives go out and sow a prophesy. Followed of course by the appearance of the individual. It was used to reinforce the position of a local ruler.

  2. Top | #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Post Hoc, perhaps? The prophesy failed as predicted, now we need to find reasons why it failed in order to keep it alive and relevant?
    You (plural) seemed to have cracked the understanding of the theology (in your eyes ) . I am intriguinly amazed (sic), which also applies to post #19 in which case I will also address. (browsing the forum this moment)

  3. Top | #23
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    I'm pretty sure that every generation for the past 2000 years has been fairly sure that his return is just around the corner.

    It reminds me of the scene in Restaurant At The End Of The Universe where there's that one cult there waiting for the return of Zarquon and the MC jokes with them about how he's almost out of time and then, with about ten seconds left before the universe ends, Zarquon runs in just to wave and say hi.

  4. Top | #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by ruby sparks View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Learner View Post
    How did you (in general) determine the date /period that the prophesy should be fullfilled by?
    It arguably doesn't matter. As best we can tell, from what appear to be the earliest writings (most notably but not only the Pauline epistles), the earliest Christians expected it imminently, during their lifetimes. They were wrong. The prophecy was wrong. And they were the earliest christians, so whatever beliefs came later, they were (and are) apparently non-original to Christianity. Allowing that there may also have been subsections of earliest Christianity (ie during the lifetime of those who lived while Jesus was alive) which did not have this belief, though these it seems, if they existed (and I don't believe there is much if any clear evidence for them) did not survive. At least we could say that the Christianity that exists today is based on a failed prophecy, because it is still in the texts.
    As I was saying to the post by DBT ... your "belief" that the predictions were "wrong" is merely an opinion as YOU see it i.e. I do not agree with the interpretation as you think you see it in texts, that _basically_ gives you the notion; of the failed prophecy. In which case ... I'd wonder..which bit / actual verse(s) do you find (you can demonstrate), gives you that implication of "failed prophecy" so we can determine at least some logicial coherence from those verses , from our different, interpretive points of views. I know DBT posted a two verses and even if right ,to which I doubt his interpretation is correct.. does not "debunk" a whole scripture or revelation by these two verse, which is a misleading and false notion. Not something to soley rely on.
    Last edited by Learner; 04-17-2019 at 07:48 PM.

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    Where's the interpretation? Jesus said "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled". There's not a whole lot to interpret there, since it's a really straightforward statement.

    That generation then passed without all of those things, including Jesus's return and all the other apocalyptic events, being fulfilled. I truly do not see how this can be viewed as anything other than a failure by Jesus to follow up on his prediction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    Where's the interpretation? Jesus said "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled". There's not a whole lot to interpret there, since it's a really straightforward statement.

    That generation then passed without all of those things, including Jesus's return and all the other apocalyptic events, being fulfilled. I truly do not see how this can be viewed as anything other than a failure by Jesus to follow up on his prediction.
    There are counter examples :

    Mine is: If Jesus is talking of the future, a prediction (the fallen temple 70.A.D. for example is one ) then this generation is the generation of that time ...in the future.

    This generation (in the future ) is going to see great wonders in the rugby world cup in October 2019.

  7. Top | #27
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    So, REALLY what he meant to say was "Verily I say unto people who come 200 generations after you, you guys listening to me, THAT generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled".

    Do you have any support for this interpretation? Any reason to think this is what was MEANT by the author, or are you just making this up to preserve the prophecy despite all rational readings of the words?

  8. Top | #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith&Co. View Post
    So, REALLY what he meant to say was "Verily I say unto people who come 200 generations after you, you guys listening to me, THAT generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled".

    Do you have any support for this interpretation? Any reason to think this is what was MEANT by the author, or are you just making this up to preserve the prophecy despite all rational readings of the words?
    I am curious how "simply" you take to the likes of DBT's interpretation .

    You (plural) have to ALSO include (to balance) things that have come to pass (at least coincide with events),... that HAS been predicted. DBT has weighed in a mere 2 verses on the scales, and has somehow found: that these mere two verse has become somewhat heavier in weight than the rest of the whole bible, and henceforth to the notion... this debunks prophecy?

    (been there , done that ...changed my mind)

  9. Top | #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Learner View Post
    You (plural) have to ALSO include (to balance) things that have come to pass,...
    No, we really don't.
    The point of prophecy is proving that you have access to divine knowledge. God is not presented as being 75%-scient, or almost-scient, but Omniscient. So, any one failure bodes very badly for a narrative with an omniscient character in the plot, nu?

    So if the authors are right about 30% or 75% or whatever, but not 100%, then it's just a matter of guessing really, really well.

  10. Top | #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Learner View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    Where's the interpretation? Jesus said "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled". There's not a whole lot to interpret there, since it's a really straightforward statement.

    That generation then passed without all of those things, including Jesus's return and all the other apocalyptic events, being fulfilled. I truly do not see how this can be viewed as anything other than a failure by Jesus to follow up on his prediction.
    There are counter examples :

    Mine is: If Jesus is talking of the future, a prediction (the fallen temple 70.A.D. for example is one ) then this generation is the generation of that time ...in the future.

    This generation (in the future ) is going to see great wonders in the rugby world cup in October 2019.
    That doesn't make any sense. He was talking to a group of people about future events and then ... addressed the crowd in those future events?

    I've heard some weak apologetics in my day and this is one you need to put a lot more effort into.

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