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Thread: CNN: American "nones" as populous as Catholics and evangelicals, and on the rise

  1. Top | #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian63 View Post
    I am looking at some recent posts by the author of that study the CNN article refers to, and he has some surprising comments in recent posts.

    https://twitter.com/ryanburge/status...90227414749184

    "...individuals with graduate degrees are consistently the *least likely* to declare that they have no religious affiliation than those with less education."

    also

    https://twitter.com/ryanburge/status...72199070998528

    "There is not a whole lot of evidence to support the assertion that educated people attend religious services less. There is not a single wave of the CCES where those without a HS diploma attend church more than those with graduate degrees." [...do not know what "CCES" is exactly]

    So the rise of the nones is not among the college-educated class, but moreso among the lesser-educated. Will have to keep that fact in mind, as it can run against a lot of stereotyping that we atheists would be prone to.
    Are we talking percentages or numbers? There will naturally be more people without college educations than with college educations. I wouldn't use a high-school education to demarcate anything of importance on this subject.

    None of my children or those of my siblings are religious save one. That one individual belongs to one of these mega-parishes where the Easter Bunny parachutes onto the field of tens of thousands of easter eggs, gifts of baskets, bicycles, tricycles, entertainment, etc. That's some weird religious shit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by T.G.G. Moogly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by braces_for_impact View Post
    Honestly, other than the Internet, I think the largest reason for evangelicals hemorrhaging members is their extremist nature combined with their involvement in politics. As society has moved on, declaring all stuff LGBTQ acceptable, Christians have almost literally chosen this as their hill to die on, and have sought to use the government to help them fight it. As a result, their hypocrisy and blunt stupidity have been on display for all to see. The problem is, of course, all the damage they'll be doing on the way out.
    There are lots of ways to explain the impending demise of organized religion in the U.S. It costs money to belong to these organizations. With the loss of the middle class that money isn't around anymore. One can also today find innumerable worthy causes to conveniently take donations that would have formerly gone to religious institutions. You don't have to show up once a week and give away large portions of your time.

    Let's not forget how all that moral high ground has been racked by corruption and pedophilia.


    One of the reasons the republican party is in bed with religion is because it wants people to stay stupid and uneducated, have children attend christian madrasas.
    That bit, I would question. Granted the GOP hypes the religious among their members but as far as actual percentage of Dems and Repubs that are religious I would think that there are more religious Democrats. Two of the largest groups that make up the Democrat party are the two groups that are the most religious in the country. Almost all blacks hold strong religious beliefs as well as the overwhelming majority of Hispanics.

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    JC on the Last Judgment: I was hungry, and you fed me; I was thirsty and you gave me drink; I was a stranger, and you asked me in; I was naked, and you clothed me, I was sick, and you came to see me; I was jailed, and you came to me...Whatever you did to the least of us, you did to me.
    Trump on his approach to life: "When somebody hits you, you hit back fifteen times harder."
    GOP: proud upholders of Christian values.

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    Lot's of reasons, but education is a big one, and so are the vocal atheists.

    The % of college grads went from 21% to 35% in the past 30 years, and % of Americans who didn't complete High school has dropped from 30% to 15%.

    Compared to those with high school or less, College grads are about twice as likely to say that religion is not important in their lives and 2.5 times more likely to not believe in God.

    Acceptance of evolution has also gone up considerably in past couple decades, with about half of Americans now saying they accept secular evolution, without a divine force guiding it. That's a bit of a chicken and egg situation, but I think the causality goes both ways.
    As people leave religion, it free them to accept science that is incompatible with that religion. But also, as people learn more about evolution and see the validity of the idea in action, it erodes the most popular pseudo-intellectual argument for God, namely the argument from design.

    Another major factor is just the visibility of vocal atheists. Until recently most people who had weak ties to the religion had never encountered or even heard a person openly express non-belief, let alone be given a visible platform to present the case against God.
    Thus, conformity pressures would have kept many doubters in the closet. Vocal atheists made many people come out of the closet, and as they did, this exposed many doubting theists to others who shared their doubts, and thus gave them the will to be more honest about their own doubts and follow them into eventual non-belief. I've seen this process in action numerous times. 30 years ago, Dawkins help me solidify my own atheism and be unafraid to express it when the topic came up, and as a result of conversations with them, several doubting theists I knew wound up switching from a person who would say they were a believer and still affiliated with their birth religion to saying they were not and had no religious affiliation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian63 View Post
    As much as people like them have turned others off of religion, I do think the world would have been better off if they simply never had been born in the first place. We should not be so thankful of them doing what they did. We are increasing our voice despite their presence, not because of it.

    Take a guy like Ray Comfort whose life’s purpose is so focused on witnessing and evangelizing to the unsaved using very stupid arguments. After he dies and leaves the earth, his lasting impact on it will be having made people dumber. What a sad legacy.
    Oh come now, be fair. He probably sold plenty of bananas. Bananas are healthy. That's a plus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skepticalbip View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by T.G.G. Moogly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by braces_for_impact View Post
    Honestly, other than the Internet, I think the largest reason for evangelicals hemorrhaging members is their extremist nature combined with their involvement in politics. As society has moved on, declaring all stuff LGBTQ acceptable, Christians have almost literally chosen this as their hill to die on, and have sought to use the government to help them fight it. As a result, their hypocrisy and blunt stupidity have been on display for all to see. The problem is, of course, all the damage they'll be doing on the way out.
    There are lots of ways to explain the impending demise of organized religion in the U.S. It costs money to belong to these organizations. With the loss of the middle class that money isn't around anymore. One can also today find innumerable worthy causes to conveniently take donations that would have formerly gone to religious institutions. You don't have to show up once a week and give away large portions of your time.

    Let's not forget how all that moral high ground has been racked by corruption and pedophilia.


    One of the reasons the republican party is in bed with religion is because it wants people to stay stupid and uneducated, have children attend christian madrasas.
    That bit, I would question. Granted the GOP hypes the religious among their members but as far as actual percentage of Dems and Repubs that are religious I would think that there are more religious Democrats. Two of the largest groups that make up the Democrat party are the two groups that are the most religious in the country. Almost all blacks hold strong religious beliefs as well as the overwhelming majority of Hispanics.
    Church membership in US plummets over past 20 years

    There was a big discrepancy over that 20-year period in regard to political affiliation: Church membership among Democrats fell from 71% to 48%, compared to a more modest drop from 77% to 69% among Republicans.
    GOP religion isn't the liberal kind of religion we see with Dems. It's a good article.

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    Quote Originally Posted by T.G.G. Moogly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by skepticalbip View Post
    That bit, I would question. Granted the GOP hypes the religious among their members but as far as actual percentage of Dems and Repubs that are religious I would think that there are more religious Democrats. Two of the largest groups that make up the Democrat party are the two groups that are the most religious in the country. Almost all blacks hold strong religious beliefs as well as the overwhelming majority of Hispanics.
    Church membership in US plummets over past 20 years

    There was a big discrepancy over that 20-year period in regard to political affiliation: Church membership among Democrats fell from 71% to 48%, compared to a more modest drop from 77% to 69% among Republicans.
    GOP religion isn't the liberal kind of religion we see with Dems. It's a good article.
    Thanks, interesting article...

    But I think you are mixing two very different things, church membership and religious (belief in god). The article, as far as I could tell, was talking about church membership. For example, I know quite a few Mexican-Americans. As the article found, a great many of them no longer attend church services but, unmentioned in the article, they remain quite religious, still believing all the Catholic beliefs but loss of dedication to the official church hierarchy.

    Hmmm, Maybe the GOP is trying to cajole that demographic (religious but non-church members) away from the Dem. party with their non-denominational religious talk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skepticalbip View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by T.G.G. Moogly View Post

    Church membership in US plummets over past 20 years



    GOP religion isn't the liberal kind of religion we see with Dems. It's a good article.
    Thanks, interesting article...

    But I think you are mixing two very different things, church membership and religious (belief in god). The article, as far as I could tell, was talking about church membership. For example, I know quite a few Mexican-Americans. As the article found, a great many of them no longer attend church services but, unmentioned in the article, they remain quite religious, still believing all the Catholic beliefs but loss of dedication to the official church hierarchy.

    Hmmm, Maybe the GOP is trying to cajole that demographic (religious but non-church members) away from the Dem. party with their non-denominational religious talk.
    No disagreement, but you've got to agree that church affiliation and god belief are very closely related.

    I also know many folk who no longer formally belong but still profess belief. I see that as a great migration away from the power and influence of religion. Honestly, that kind of religion isn't so bad imho because those believers are finding kinship and acceptance outside the doors of parishes and congregations, even secular kinship.

    I thought the drop among Hispanics was surprising. I did not expect to see that, considering how faithfully they embrace traditional Catholicism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian63 View Post
    I am looking at some recent posts by the author of that study the CNN article refers to, and he has some surprising comments in recent posts.

    https://twitter.com/ryanburge/status...90227414749184

    "...individuals with graduate degrees are consistently the *least likely* to declare that they have no religious affiliation than those with less education."

    also

    https://twitter.com/ryanburge/status...72199070998528

    "There is not a whole lot of evidence to support the assertion that educated people attend religious services less. There is not a single wave of the CCES where those without a HS diploma attend church more than those with graduate degrees." [...do not know what "CCES" is exactly]

    So the rise of the nones is not among the college-educated class, but moreso among the lesser-educated. Will have to keep that fact in mind, as it can run against a lot of stereotyping that we atheists would be prone to.
    While those with religious affiliation do attend services more often, the relationship breaks down when you start comparing people with different education. That's b/c, education is a proxy for SES, and there are lots of low education low SES folks who are very religious, but work too much to have the luxury of attending services. IOW, religious people with education attend church more than religious people without education, so you cannot use attendance differences between the groups to infer religiosity differences.
    For example, if you look at just those who affiliate as "Christian", those with college degrees are less likely to say that religion is "very important to them", and yet are more likely to attend services.




    The % of people overall who say religion is "not all important to them" goes up consistently with education level, with Postgraduates being 3 times more likely to say this than those who don't graduate h.s.



    And the probability of being an atheist almost triples for college grads.



    Also, being a "None" doesn't mean the same thing for the educated and non-educated.
    When you look at the "Nones", you see that the educated "Nones" are more likely to actually be atheists and non-religious rather than just religious theists that don't happen to affiliate with any of the specific sects on those surveys. Compared to college grad "Nones", the "Nones" without any college education are more than 2-3 times as likely to believe in God, pray daily, view religion as "very important in their lives, and have high overall religious commitment.


  10. Top | #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian63 View Post
    I am looking at some recent posts by the author of that study the CNN article refers to, and he has some surprising comments in recent posts.

    https://twitter.com/ryanburge/status...90227414749184

    "...individuals with graduate degrees are consistently the *least likely* to declare that they have no religious affiliation than those with less education."

    also

    https://twitter.com/ryanburge/status...72199070998528

    "There is not a whole lot of evidence to support the assertion that educated people attend religious services less. There is not a single wave of the CCES where those without a HS diploma attend church more than those with graduate degrees." [...do not know what "CCES" is exactly]

    So the rise of the nones is not among the college-educated class, but moreso among the lesser-educated. Will have to keep that fact in mind, as it can run against a lot of stereotyping that we atheists would be prone to.
    The CCES is the Cooperative Congressional Elections Survey, administered and interpreted by Harvard during election years; it is well known for having an unusually large sample size.

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