Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 28

Thread: Buddhism Psychology or Religion

  1. Top | #11
    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Oregon's westernmost
    Posts
    10,318
    Archived
    18,213
    Total Posts
    28,531
    Rep Power
    52
    Quote Originally Posted by ronburgundy View Post

    .....

    Buddhist are humans and thus subject to intolerance and violence, and hypocrisy. But when they do so, they go against the clear teachings of their religion, unlike the adherents of Abrahamic religions who can easily and often do point to the clear commands of their doctrines that not only allow but require intolerance and violence (Note, one command not to kill in the Bible doesn't outweigh the numerous instances where God or his followers killed or commanded violence to infidels).
    Oooh. Give Buddhist racists a pass because they look so good in orange. Buddhists in Myanmar practice reflects their understanding of their faith in the context of race. Period.

    As we're beginning to understand here in the US tribe Trumps - meant to be - faith.

  2. Top | #12
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    4,631
    Rep Power
    23
    Quote Originally Posted by fromderinside View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ronburgundy View Post

    .....

    Buddhist are humans and thus subject to intolerance and violence, and hypocrisy. But when they do so, they go against the clear teachings of their religion, unlike the adherents of Abrahamic religions who can easily and often do point to the clear commands of their doctrines that not only allow but require intolerance and violence (Note, one command not to kill in the Bible doesn't outweigh the numerous instances where God or his followers killed or commanded violence to infidels).
    Oooh. Give Buddhist racists a pass because they look so good in orange. Buddhists in Myanmar practice reflects their understanding of their faith in the context of race. Period.

    As we're beginning to understand here in the US tribe Trumps - meant to be - faith.
    It' isn't giving anyone a pass. It has nothing to do with the degree of morality of their actions. It's about making a rational assessment about the causal role that the content of their religious beliefs are playing. There is a clear, direct, logical, and psychological causal link between belief in and worship of an authoritarian God assumed to have killed many times for disobedience and violence of believers in that God against non-believers. Take any person in any context and instill those beliefs in them, and their probability of violence will increase. There is no such connection between the content of Buddhist doctrines and violence of it's adherents, and in fact, there is a negative logical and psychological connection between those beliefs and acts of violence. Which means, the actual ideas and content of those Buddhist beliefs are not likely playing any causal role in the acts of violence. In fact, if anything they are likely causing the violence to be less than it otherwise would be in that context.

    Yes, "Tribe" matters, regardless of the content of one's beliefs. IOW, belief content can have it's causal role, but mere tribal association has a separate influence on violence. That's the point. Once Buddhists come to identify as part of an ingroup with an outgroup enemy, then outgroup violence is made more likely, even without the content of the beliefs enabling it. But when belief content strongly encourages violence (as it inherently does in authoritarian monotheism), then the problem of outgroup violence is compounded.

  3. Top | #13
    Contributor DBT's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    ɹǝpunuʍop puɐן ǝɥʇ
    Posts
    8,472
    Archived
    17,906
    Total Posts
    26,378
    Rep Power
    69
    For my two Bobs worth, Buddhism is essentially a philosophy with various sets of religious beliefs forming around the core teachings.

  4. Top | #14
    Contributor DrZoidberg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Copenhagen
    Posts
    7,686
    Archived
    5,746
    Total Posts
    13,432
    Rep Power
    51
    Quote Originally Posted by ronburgundy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    All religions include mental and emotional disciplines.
    True, but in theistic religions (Christianity, Judaism, Islam) the foundation of those disciplines are a focus upon, obedience to, and worship of an authoritarian God. Buddhism is largely non-theistic. Thus, most of it's perspectives aimed at improving one's outlook and state of mind do not require supernatural assumptions. This, makes it's psycho-therapeutic aspects more distinct from it's religious aspects than with the Abraham religions or even polytheistic religions like Hinduism. That said, there are supernatural aspects of Buddhism, including reincarnation and Karma. Although, a "spirit" that is always tethered to a physical body is less supernatural than the immaterial God and soul assumed by theistic religions. Also, without a theistic foundation, the supernatural aspects of Buddhism are easier to ignore and dispense with while still retaining most of what it says about how to achieve happiness, which is what most Westeners do when adopting Buddhism (or Taoism and Zen).
    Meditation is meditation. Christians all pray to God, ie silent introspection. So it qualifies as also being a spiritual practice.

  5. Top | #15
    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Oregon's westernmost
    Posts
    10,318
    Archived
    18,213
    Total Posts
    28,531
    Rep Power
    52
    Quote Originally Posted by ronburgundy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by fromderinside View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ronburgundy View Post

    .....

    Buddhist are humans and thus subject to intolerance and violence, and hypocrisy. But when they do so, they go against the clear teachings of their religion, unlike the adherents of Abrahamic religions who can easily and often do point to the clear commands of their doctrines that not only allow but require intolerance and violence (Note, one command not to kill in the Bible doesn't outweigh the numerous instances where God or his followers killed or commanded violence to infidels).
    Oooh. Give Buddhist racists a pass because they look so good in orange. Buddhists in Myanmar practice reflects their understanding of their faith in the context of race. Period.

    As we're beginning to understand here in the US tribe Trumps - meant to be - faith.
    It' isn't giving anyone a pass. It has nothing to do with the degree of morality of their actions. It's about making a rational assessment about the causal role that the content of their religious beliefs are playing. There is a clear, direct, logical, and psychological causal link between belief in and worship of an authoritarian God assumed to have killed many times for disobedience and violence of believers in that God against non-believers. Take any person in any context and instill those beliefs in them, and their probability of violence will increase. There is no such connection between the content of Buddhist doctrines and violence of it's adherents, and in fact, there is a negative logical and psychological connection between those beliefs and acts of violence. Which means, the actual ideas and content of those Buddhist beliefs are not likely playing any causal role in the acts of violence. In fact, if anything they are likely causing the violence to be less than it otherwise would be in that context.

    Yes, "Tribe" matters, regardless of the content of one's beliefs. IOW, belief content can have it's causal role, but mere tribal association has a separate influence on violence. That's the point. Once Buddhists come to identify as part of an ingroup with an outgroup enemy, then outgroup violence is made more likely, even without the content of the beliefs enabling it. But when belief content strongly encourages violence (as it inherently does in authoritarian monotheism), then the problem of outgroup violence is compounded.
    Twp quick points. One: Buddhism emerges from societies that are both structured and structured by subservience. In such societies one doesn't often see uprisings and when one does see them there they are usually non-violent. So buddhism arises and applies to special circumstances. Two: When there are two competing faiths, one arising from militant tribes militant and the other arising from a subservient one must pull analysis from the tribes in which those modes exist rather than compare religions.

    Trying to parse in defence of a religion or a philosophy where this thread is least suited to address stretches one's analysis all out of shape and consistency as you so aptly demonstrate.

    Militancy exists as a fundamental element in tribalism whereas it is a pick and choose aspect of religions.

  6. Top | #16
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    4,631
    Rep Power
    23
    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ronburgundy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    All religions include mental and emotional disciplines.
    True, but in theistic religions (Christianity, Judaism, Islam) the foundation of those disciplines are a focus upon, obedience to, and worship of an authoritarian God. Buddhism is largely non-theistic. Thus, most of it's perspectives aimed at improving one's outlook and state of mind do not require supernatural assumptions. This, makes it's psycho-therapeutic aspects more distinct from it's religious aspects than with the Abraham religions or even polytheistic religions like Hinduism. That said, there are supernatural aspects of Buddhism, including reincarnation and Karma. Although, a "spirit" that is always tethered to a physical body is less supernatural than the immaterial God and soul assumed by theistic religions. Also, without a theistic foundation, the supernatural aspects of Buddhism are easier to ignore and dispense with while still retaining most of what it says about how to achieve happiness, which is what most Westeners do when adopting Buddhism (or Taoism and Zen).
    Meditation is meditation. Christians all pray to God, ie silent introspection. So it qualifies as also being a spiritual practice.
    Which is about as useful as saying "Matter is matter, so there is no point is making any distinctions among different forms of it."
    Most theistic prayer is not actually meditation in any meaningful sense. It is more similar to begging your daddy for something, and is an external focus upon a supernatural deity the lacks the quiet introspection of Buddhist prayer that has no supernatural. In most ways the two are the exact opposite of each other. So, if they are both "spiritual", then that just reveals how completely meaningless the word "spiritual" is.

  7. Top | #17
    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Oregon's westernmost
    Posts
    10,318
    Archived
    18,213
    Total Posts
    28,531
    Rep Power
    52
    When it comes to establishing a calming state; one where heart, breathing, and activity are at minimum other than when sleeping, meditation and prayer are equivalent. Hell we demonstrated that in our labs in the '70s when we researched tools useful for repose, DMR, etc. and found drugs, alpha generation, hypnosis, and meditation and prayer all similar in those regards we we went about setting up relaxation therapy labs. Yes we unofficially included marijuana in those studies.

    In conclusion through the experimental method in psychology we established the equivalence between prayer and meditation. So on that plane buddhism and other organized religions that include prayer are similar to each other and different from psychology. The objective link is critical.

  8. Top | #18
    Contributor DrZoidberg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Copenhagen
    Posts
    7,686
    Archived
    5,746
    Total Posts
    13,432
    Rep Power
    51
    Quote Originally Posted by ronburgundy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post

    Meditation is meditation. Christians all pray to God, ie silent introspection. So it qualifies as also being a spiritual practice.
    Which is about as useful as saying "Matter is matter, so there is no point is making any distinctions among different forms of it."
    Most theistic prayer is not actually meditation in any meaningful sense. It is more similar to begging your daddy for something, and is an external focus upon a supernatural deity the lacks the quiet introspection of Buddhist prayer that has no supernatural. In most ways the two are the exact opposite of each other. So, if they are both "spiritual", then that just reveals how completely meaningless the word "spiritual" is.
    To ask God for stuff you have to peer inwards and figure out what is important to you. That's the important bit. Asking God for it isn't the secret sauce. So I think that qualifies as a spiritual practice. While other forms might be better. This isn't worthless IMHO.

  9. Top | #19
    Contributor
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    The North
    Posts
    8,911
    Archived
    9,514
    Total Posts
    18,425
    Rep Power
    44
    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ronburgundy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post

    Meditation is meditation. Christians all pray to God, ie silent introspection. So it qualifies as also being a spiritual practice.
    Which is about as useful as saying "Matter is matter, so there is no point is making any distinctions among different forms of it."
    Most theistic prayer is not actually meditation in any meaningful sense. It is more similar to begging your daddy for something, and is an external focus upon a supernatural deity the lacks the quiet introspection of Buddhist prayer that has no supernatural. In most ways the two are the exact opposite of each other. So, if they are both "spiritual", then that just reveals how completely meaningless the word "spiritual" is.
    To ask God for stuff you have to peer inwards and figure out what is important to you. That's the important bit. Asking God for it isn't the secret sauce. So I think that qualifies as a spiritual practice. While other forms might be better. This isn't worthless IMHO.
    He does have a point, though.

    In Abrahamic religions there is a tendency to push responsibility away from ones self, 'no matter what happens this is a part of God's plan'. So looking inward but then asking God for help implies a kind of delusion. Where, conversely, in something like Buddhism the person meditating is only looking to themselves for guidance.

    Broadly speaking, they're both spiritual practices, but one of them is slightly more grounded in reality.

  10. Top | #20
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    Chochenyo Territory, US
    Posts
    1,975
    Rep Power
    8
    Quote Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post

    To ask God for stuff you have to peer inwards and figure out what is important to you. That's the important bit. Asking God for it isn't the secret sauce. So I think that qualifies as a spiritual practice. While other forms might be better. This isn't worthless IMHO.
    He does have a point, though.

    In Abrahamic religions there is a tendency to push responsibility away from ones self, 'no matter what happens this is a part of God's plan'. So looking inward but then asking God for help implies a kind of delusion. Where, conversely, in something like Buddhism the person meditating is only looking to themselves for guidance.
    Ah, the general Buddhist perspective is that self does not, in fact, exist.

Similar Threads

  1. Recommendations for books on Buddhism?
    By rousseau in forum Other Philosophical Discussions
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 04-20-2019, 08:08 AM
  2. Taoism, Buddhism, and Asian Mysticism
    By steve_bank in forum General Religion
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 07-20-2018, 03:49 AM
  3. The darker side of Buddhism
    By Potoooooooo in forum General Religion
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 06-17-2015, 11:12 PM
  4. sexual misconduct, buddhism and gay culture
    By tantric in forum Morals & Principles
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 05-23-2015, 04:19 PM
  5. Radical Buddhism
    By steve_bnk in forum General Religion
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 05-04-2014, 12:22 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •